PSYOP in Rangers, and Enabler Support to SF

I don't know about an ASI, but an SQI could do the trick. At least, it works pretty well for the guys who hold SQI "T" and "U", keeping them in the units and away from HRC....
SOT-A's already have the "V" SQI and I think it was thought that that would prevent losing them but it hasn't. Maybe a new SQI that denotes that 35P as specifically a SOT-A would do the trick.
 
SOT-A's already have the "V" SQI and I think it was thought that that would prevent losing them but it hasn't. Maybe a new SQI that denotes that 35P as specifically a SOT-A would do the trick.
Yeah, create another 35 Series MOS to keep NSA happy (which is admin Bullshit BTW).
 
I...

In all honesty, I firmly believe that this A&S will never get off the ground until 18 series Commanders at the O5 and O6 level start clamoring for this to get done and for it to get done right. Because if they want to guarantee quality SOT-A's working alongside with their ODA's it's going to have to take USASOC, or higher level, command influence to get HRC to come to grips with this being the right thing to do. Honestly the whole thing has really soured me with how badly inner Army politics can effect the guys on the ground and their combat readiness.

The above is exactly right. Sorry, enablers of all stripes supporting SF Groups, but USASFC doesn't care about you.

Your commander probably cares about you. The ODAs you support might care about you. Your Group too, maybe. But USASFC doesn't. If they did, they'd have, among other things, a screening, assessment, selection, and training program for all of you, to 1) perform quality control over who gets assigned, and 2) retain those with the skills and aptitude to function at a high level as support personnel inside an SF unit. You know, the same kinds of things that almost every other ARSOF and Army-dominant national SOF unit does. Until and unless that changes, you're just another red-hat keeping the bills paid, the money flowing, the arms room inspected, and the coffee warm. Everything else, an ODA is going to try to do itself. And I don't blame them.
 
I realize that much of the thread here is focusing on SOT-A's, but regarding informal A&S programs, there is the issue of the other, lesser known 'V' slots in Group belonging to the Chemical Reconnaissance Detachments. Soldiers on these teams are expected to eventually graduate Ranger School, as their mission of providing CBRN recon and SSE to the ODAs require a certain level of tactical expertise. However, when I was with 5th Group a few years back, these guys would also be slotted to attend courses like SFAUC, SERE, and other ARSOF specific training to round out their skill set and provide the CRD with fully capable individuals. It would seem to me that each of the Groups is doing what they can to circumvent USASFCs lack of interest in implementing any kind of comprehensive A&S for their enablers. Also during my time at Campbell, senior leadership in the GSB put together something called SOSOP, or the Special Operations Support Orientation Program, that was designed to weed out unfit enablers. I recall it being referred to as a kind of a shorter and less intense 'Green Platoon' for 5th Group support guys. I went through that and it was not really anything much, although a few guys didn't make it. I don't know if this program has gained any support elsewhere.
 
This was in 2009; I PCSed in early 2010. Not sure what happened to the washouts, but I had heard the plan was to send them 'down the street' to the 101st. After I had left, a buddy of mine said that GSB started really cracking down on guys, requiring everyone to run a full marathon, sending people to boards to determine if they 'were right for Group', etc. Since I am PCSing soon to Eglin, I will be able to see if that trend has continued or not.
 
requiring everyone to run a full marathon,

What other tasks did they need to perform? Climb Everest? Drafted to an NFL practice squad? Backflip a 250cc dirtbike?

I'm not knocking you, but that is the dumbest criteria I've heard in a long time.
 
Hey, I just said they were looking to weed people out at the time; I agree the tasks were kind of meaningless and arbitrary. That was after I left, so I'm not sure how all of that played out. The SOSOP idea was a little more put-together, if not especially challenging. There were team-based exercises, day and night land-nav, and we used the Air Assault ruck path that Campbell had just redone. SOSOP was at least an evaluation of soldier skills and teamwork.
 
What other tasks did they need to perform? Climb Everest? Drafted to an NFL practice squad? Backflip a 250cc dirtbike?

I'm not knocking you, but that is the dumbest criteria I've heard in a long time.

Yeah, sounds like bullshit.
 
...More recently some of you may have heard about the 18G MOS that was proposed a couple of years back, which was exactly that, a SOT-A type 18 Series MOS. The problem was that, for reasons I cannot discuss on this forum, the 35P, 35N and 35S MOS' have certain authorizations and clearance authorities that only they are allowed to have. NSA refuses to give those same authorities to a non-35P/N/S Series MOS so the 18G idea became DOA.

The 18G was to be far more than just a SOT-A and it came to a dead end for more reasons than just the NSA issue... ;-)
 
Before this deployment, I really didn't understand why USASFC has so much disdain for SOT-A members. Now I get it: ODAs have had bad experiences (e.g. Squidward's hike) and senior leaders, who have had similar, are now in a position to enforce the "SOT-As...oh hell no".

If this is a MOS problem, WHY does the same situation NOT exist within RSTB and the OSTs? Because:

1) their 1SG (35Z5V) is a leader with zero BS tolerance
2) they have a screening process (RASP)
3) the supported unit (Ranger BNs) understand the role of the OSTs and what they bring to the fight: unique technical capabilities AND accept the OSTs have the same fighting skills as line Rangers
4) they have a proven combat record

Why are the 35-series guys staying in Ranger BN?

Back on topic...what do the MISO guys do anyway?
 
Hey, I just said they were looking to weed people out at the time; I agree the tasks were kind of meaningless and arbitrary. That was after I left, so I'm not sure how all of that played out. The SOSOP idea was a little more put-together, if not especially challenging. There were team-based exercises, day and night land-nav, and we used the Air Assault ruck path that Campbell had just redone. SOSOP was at least an evaluation of soldier skills and teamwork.
I think the run a marathon comment was what generated the questions? responses.
What does running 26 miles have to do with being a good Soldier?
 
Before this deployment, I really didn't understand why USASFC has so much disdain for SOT-A members. Now I get it: ODAs have had bad experiences (e.g. Squidward's hike) and senior leaders, who have had similar, are now in a position to enforce the "SOT-As...oh hell no".

If this is a MOS problem, WHY does the same situation NOT exist within RSTB and the OSTs? Because:

1) their 1SG (35Z5V) is a leader with zero BS tolerance
2) they have a screening process (RASP)
3) the supported unit (Ranger BNs) understand the role of the OSTs and what they bring to the fight: unique technical capabilities AND accept the OSTs have the same fighting skills as line Rangers
4) they have a proven combat record

Why are the 35-series guys staying in Ranger BN?

Back on topic...what do the MISO guys do anyway?


That and your post.
 
I realize that much of the thread here is focusing on SOT-A's, but regarding informal A&S programs, there is the issue of the other, lesser known 'V' slots in Group belonging to the Chemical Reconnaissance Detachments. Soldiers on these teams are expected to eventually graduate Ranger School, as their mission of providing CBRN recon and SSE to the ODAs require a certain level of tactical expertise. However, when I was with 5th Group a few years back, these guys would also be slotted to attend courses like SFAUC, SERE, and other ARSOF specific training to round out their skill set and provide the CRD with fully capable individuals. It would seem to me that each of the Groups is doing what they can to circumvent USASFCs lack of interest in implementing any kind of comprehensive A&S for their enablers. Also during my time at Campbell, senior leadership in the GSB put together something called SOSOP, or the Special Operations Support Orientation Program, that was designed to weed out unfit enablers. I recall it being referred to as a kind of a shorter and less intense 'Green Platoon' for 5th Group support guys. I went through that and it was not really anything much, although a few guys didn't make it. I don't know if this program has gained any support elsewhere.
I've never been in GSB but I remember when they did this and needless to say they no longer do it. I think the reason was because running a marathon for an assessment is ridiculous, none of the soldiers in the line companies could get anything done because entire shops in GSB were gone for days on "field problems", and at the end of the day all the MOS' in GSB are low density so even if they wanted to get rid of non-hackers they couldn't because HRC just laughed at them. I'm sure there was a real super dirtbag or two that got sent to the 101st on 1SG drug deals but for the most part the entire event was a waste of effort.
The 18G was to be far more than just a SOT-A and it came to a dead end for more reasons than just the NSA issue... ;-)
Oh Lord don't get me started on the 18G! I don't how it was at your Group Cric but I remember when we got the brief on it and they described it as the MOS that would do the EW and CNO of the SOT-As and the TSE and TTL of the 18E's. They said the plan to build senior cadre for the MOS was to send select senior 18E's through the 6 week SOT-A portion of the course and then take senior, established SOT-A's, and then send them through SFAS, SUT, and Robin SAGE and give them their tab. All I remember is the entire room burst into laughter and from then on the MOS was known in 5th Group as 18Go-Go Gadget. :ROFLMAO:

Before this deployment, I really didn't understand why USASFC has so much disdain for SOT-A members. Now I get it: ODAs have had bad experiences (e.g. Squidward's hike) and senior leaders, who have had similar, are now in a position to enforce the "SOT-As...oh hell no".

If this is a MOS problem, WHY does the same situation NOT exist within RSTB and the OSTs? Because:

1) their 1SG (35Z5V) is a leader with zero BS tolerance
2) they have a screening process (RASP)
3) the supported unit (Ranger BNs) understand the role of the OSTs and what they bring to the fight: unique technical capabilities AND accept the OSTs have the same fighting skills as line Rangers
4) they have a proven combat record

Why are the 35-series guys staying in Ranger BN?

Back on topic...what do the MISO guys do anyway?
TRUTH!:thumbsup:

IMHO not all enablers need an A&S, ad hoc, established or otherwise. Maybe a board pertinent to your MOS and a PT test to ensure competence but that's about it. The SOT-A's though are on the freaking ground, walking the same mountains and living in the same team houses as the dudes on the teams, and there are only 40 of them total in a Group. It just doesn't make sense to not know if they can shoot, move and communicate and deal with severe amounts of stress before they ever get to a team. In the end what invariably happens is that teams and companies come to know their favorite SOT-A's and by name request them for every exercise, training event and deployment they get. The rest get sent to an ODA that realizes they got a shit bag and in turn makes them the radio watch monkey. Which is the exact right thing to do. The wrong thing is for USASFC and USASOC to continue to let it happen. SF created the idea of on-the-ground SOF SIGINT. They freaking invented it in the 60's. Every other SOF element saw it and realized SF was on to something. NSW-TACEW, MARSOC Radio Recon PLT and Ranger OST's are all copies of the original SOD/SOT-A idea. The difference is they cracked the nut and made it an A&S required position and are now surpassing the SF community in something SF originally created. It's crazy! :wall:
 
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