Retention and Recruitment Crisis

Devildoc said:
Not an issue at this level. There are some things for which I had to sign a NDA, and those things we only talk about behind closed doors.



I am in a weird position for sure because I have fingers in multiple pies: my role here at Duke re: SFMS SOCT, MPT, I have done some instruction with trauma III at SOCM and given 'guest lectures,' and having friends (not just Deltas) on ODAs. People vent and I have to discern what's just venting, and what needs to be leveled up. But soldiers/sailors/Marines/airmen bitching about their lot in life is a foundational piece of being in the military.

There is one thing I have spoken to SWCC leadership about: a lot of the bitching, it's from cadre and instructors, and in front of students. It's little wonder the students feel free to do it, free from ramifications, if the instructorship are so open with it, too.
Click to expand...

Yeah. That is unprofessional on the instructors absolutely. Things must be different. I know that if it came back I was bitching to a civilian, I would have been hemmed up. Our philosophy on the team when talking to civilians or even support guys we worked with is that you didn’t say anything to them you wouldn’t to a reporter, which if you know group guys, isn’t a lot.
 
TLDR20 said:
Yeah. That is unprofessional on the instructors absolutely. Things must be different. I know that if it came back I was bitching to a civilian, I would have been hemmed up. Our philosophy on the team when talking to civilians or even support guys we worked with is that you didn’t say anything to them you wouldn’t to a reporter, which if you know group guys, isn’t a lot.
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I pull the I'm-55-and-I-know-a-thing-or-two-because-I've-seen-a-athing-or-two card; I have told them I am a safe space, but talk like everyone is going to stab you in the back.

The ODA interpersonal relationship really is no different than a platoon, where we really endorsed "what you say here, what you see here, stays here" philosophy. It can be a difficult line to walk for young guys, but seasoned, mature instructors? Yeah, that's an issue.
 
TLDR20 said:
Our philosophy on the team when talking to civilians or even support guys we worked with is that you didn’t say anything to them you wouldn’t to a reporter
Click to expand...

As a support guy, this is 100% true. Even if I could prove something as a fact, undeniable fact, and I mean 100 percent you have no defense: an 18 series would tell me and my CoC that the sun is green, water an illusion, pasta is made of metal, and Epstien killed himself, that ODA would stick to its story.

I once challenged an ODA on this topic and was told "You earned a lot of respect here, but don't ever do that again" that I'm equally proud and mortified. I respect that, I hate that, but I understand. And life goes on.

Game recognizes game.

You receive the hated love emoji, but Goddamn can we get a replacement?
 
Devildoc said:
The ODA interpersonal relationship really is no different than a platoon, where we really endorsed "what you say here, what you see here, stays here" philosophy. It can be a difficult line to walk for young guys, but seasoned, mature instructors? Yeah, that's an issue.
Click to expand...

That is a thing of the past.

As the paradigm changed from "mostly Army dudes with a few 18 x-rays" to a more modern mostly X-rays with a smattering of in service transfers - the end result on the back end no longer follows a "what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas" cultural norm
Book Face
Twixter
Insantgrains
Tip Top
...everything is posted out there for all to see
...everyone wants to know why THEIR opinion isn't valued over all others
Yada
Yada
Yada

From around 2005 until I left active duty, i watched that dynamic deteriorate at the tactical level. As a Senior, as an Intel Guy, as a Team Sgt, and as an AOB SGM

There is no "I" in 'Team' but you sure as fuck CAN spell "ME" with those letters. Thre was a time when only your closest friend would ever tell you what was going on wrong in his team - and even then - only because the two of you had a friendly relationship that predated "the team"
When I returned from SWC and later from my first trip post-SWC, I was amazed at how many folks in the company seemed to know about shit that should have never made it out of a team room.
Even to the point of knowing which guys thought "their" Team Sgt was fucking them over by not writing an NCOER that was all Excellent - 1/1 - Among The Best
...even though these same turds were resting on fraudulent rifle qualification sheets and padded PT test numbers

As an AOB SGM it flabbergasted me how often I'd hear guys pop into the B-Team complaining about shit on their ODA and how fucked up was because their leaders didn't know what they were doing.
I would also say - on the angle of treating support guys or civilians "different" - thats not so much a "what you say here, what you see here, stays here" behavior as it is tem guys thinking they are better than everyone else/
I know, because I are one.

I was the same way for a long time - until I matured enough to realize that my truck don't run without the mechanics, the updates and imagery don't get got without the intel guys, supplies don't flow without the loggies, and the planes don't fly without the staff guys.
It also took me a long time to realize that the Tm Sgt, AOB SGM, BN CSM, Group CSM and the Commanding General were NOT actually "fucking me" like I swore that they were...
...they just had jobs to do and other people to worry about because it wasn't all about the "ME" in 'team'

Like I said - in my world, the evolution of this behavior seemed to start around 2005 and has slowly gotten worse ver the years because nobody wants to tell somebody to pull their head out of their ass anymore.

Its the new normal. We should all get used to it.
 
Last edited:
Box said:
That is a thing of the past.

As the paradigm changed from "mostly Army dudes with a few 18 x-rays" to a more modern mostly X-rays with a smattering of in service transfers - the end result on the back end no longer follows a "what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas" cultural norm
Book Face
Twixter
Insantgrains
Tip Top
...everything is posted out there for all to see
...everyone wants to know why THEIR opinion isn't valued over all others
Yada
Yada
Yada

From around 2005 until I left active duty, i watched that dynamic deteriorate at the tactical level. As a Senior, as an Intel Guy, as a Team Sgt, and as an AOB SGM

There is no "I" in 'Team' but you sure as fuck CAN spell "ME" with those letters. Thre was a time when only your closest friend would ever tell you what was going on wrong in his team - and even then - only because the two of you had a friendly relationship that predated "the team"
When I returned from SWC and later from my first trip post-SWC, I was amazed at how many folks in the company seemed to know about shit that should have never made it out of a team room.
Even to the point of knowing which guys thought "their" Team Sgt was fucking them over by not writing an NCOER that was all Excellent - 1/1 - Among The Best
...even though these same turds were resting on fraudulent rifle qualification sheets and padded PT test numbers

As an AOB SGM it flabbergasted me how often I'd hear guys pop into the B-Team complaining about shit on their ODA and how fucked up was because their leaders didn't know what they were doing.

Like I said - in my world, the evolution of this behavior seemed to start around 2005 and has slowly gotten worse ver the years because nobody wants to tell somebody to pull their head out of their ass anymore.

Its the new normal. We should all get used to it.
Click to expand...

I hear you about the transition from vet-heavy to X-ray-heavy personnel. My mentor growing up, my father figure after my dad died, was my neighbor (and incidentally my history teacher and assist principal in high school), he was in the army 25 years, 20 years in SF, retired in the mid-70s. John Wolf, a man among men. He had tried to talk me into joining the army and going into SF, and was flabbergasted at the "SF baby" program (late 80s) and doing away with the policy of having to be a NCO before SF.

All that to say, youth and immaturity is a challenge, as is street-to-fleet like 18X in which being in the army is a side thing and SF is the end-all/be-all.

The composition of a regular ol' infantry platoon is a bit different: it's bigger, and more stratified with NCO depth and a variety of experience, but the problem is the same. A lot of youth and immaturity, and platoon leadership really tried to handle everything in-house. That basic fighting unit--a platoon, an ODA, a M1 Abrams, a squadron--is effective partly because of the unit cohesion, and going outside the unit is a sin.
 
Box said:
That is a thing of the past.

As the paradigm changed from "mostly Army dudes with a few 18 x-rays" to a more modern mostly X-rays with a smattering of in service transfers - the end result on the back end no longer follows a "what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas" cultural norm
Book Face
Twixter
Insantgrains
Tip Top
...everything is posted out there for all to see
...everyone wants to know why THEIR opinion isn't valued over all others
Yada
Yada
Yada

From around 2005 until I left active duty, i watched that dynamic deteriorate at the tactical level. As a Senior, as an Intel Guy, as a Team Sgt, and as an AOB SGM

There is no "I" in 'Team' but you sure as fuck CAN spell "ME" with those letters. Thre was a time when only your closest friend would ever tell you what was going on wrong in his team - and even then - only because the two of you had a friendly relationship that predated "the team"
When I returned from SWC and later from my first trip post-SWC, I was amazed at how many folks in the company seemed to know about shit that should have never made it out of a team room.
Even to the point of knowing which guys thought "their" Team Sgt was fucking them over by not writing an NCOER that was all Excellent - 1/1 - Among The Best
...even though these same turds were resting on fraudulent rifle qualification sheets and padded PT test numbers

As an AOB SGM it flabbergasted me how often I'd hear guys pop into the B-Team complaining about shit on their ODA and how fucked up was because their leaders didn't know what they were doing.
I would also say - on the angle of treating support guys or civilians "different" - thats not so much a "what you say here, what you see here, stays here" behavior as it is tem guys thinking they are better than everyone else/
I know, because I are one.

I was the same way for a long time - until I matured enough to realize that my truck don't run without the mechanics, the updates and imagery don't get got without the intel guys, supplies don't flow without the loggies, and the planes don't fly without the staff guys.
It also took me a long time to realize that the Tm Sgt, AOB SGM, BN CSM, Group CSM and the Commanding General were NOT actually "fucking me" like I swore that they were...
...they just had jobs to do and other people to worry about because it wasn't all about the "ME" in 'team'

Like I said - in my world, the evolution of this behavior seemed to start around 2005 and has slowly gotten worse ver the years because nobody wants to tell somebody to pull their head out of their ass anymore.

Its the new normal. We should all get used to it.
Click to expand...

I was lucky, my team was all senior guys. The “what happens in there stays in there” mentality was absolutely the law. I wasn’t denigrating support personnel, I’m just saying the things we shared with them or discussed with them was much different. When deployed we had two meetings, one with the support attachments, and then a team specific meeting, that excluded everyone who wasn’t us. Bitches gripes and complaints were not brought up in the first meeting.
 
AWP said:
As a support guy, this is 100% true. Even if I could prove something as a fact, undeniable fact, and I mean 100 percent you have no defense: an 18 series would tell me and my CoC that the sun is green, water an illusion, pasta is made of metal, and Epstien killed himself, that ODA would stick to its story.

I once challenged an ODA on this topic and was told "You earned a lot of respect here, but don't ever do that again" that I'm equally proud and mortified. I respect that, I hate that, but I understand. And life goes on.

Game recognizes game.

You receive the hated love emoji, but Goddamn can we get a replacement?
Click to expand...

We are all prima donna know it alls.
 
RackMaster said:
When shit like this keeps coming out, no wonder the younger generation doesn't want to join. This is fucking infuriating.

This happened at a Naval Reserve unit.


"It gets worse..."
Click to expand...

There is no limit to this man's talent.

main-qimg-6a30409c953c15bc91a27da3ed6644ea-pjlq
 

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