The Afghanistan and Pakistan Thread

Although I'm quoting your statement, I'm not specifically calling you out here per se, however, I'm always curious about statements like the one bolded above. As a result, the following questions are not directed to you alone, although I'd love more of your insight, but more broadly to others that share this view.

Why is it you think "they" won? And who are we specifically referring to -- the Taliban, Al Qaeda, ISIS, all the above, someone else?

But more importantly, what does "winning" like to you? How is it defined and what shaped your expectation for "winning"?

Fair points.

- The Afghan gov't, turds though they may be, control...Kabul, maybe a few dots on a map? They don't control the country and weren't involved in the peace process. We have said our goal (one of a nnumber of changing goals over the years), was a stable Afghan gov't. That has not happened.
- This reeks of the Soviet withdrawal. Once again a weak gov't was left in power while the force capable of propping it up quit the field of battle. History repeats itself.
- The TB is a terrorist organization. The old line people cheer about not negotiating with terrorists is false and has been since Reagan. Those responsible for providing AlQ a safe haven are now free to do whatever.
- We gave in to a Haqqani.

I don't see how anyone could say we won. At best we tied and I don't agree that we tied. We gave up. That's an "L" on the scoreboard.
 
Pakistan won the US/Afghanistan war. The Haqqani Network, which is the controlling faction of the Taliban, is a "veritable arm" of ISI, Pakistan's intelligence agency. As long as Pakistan allowed the Haqqanis, the Taliban, and allied militias safe haven in the western part of their country, they could plan, equip, train, rest, and most importantly regenerate until we simply got tired and left. It took 18 years, but it worked.

Well played Pakistan, well played...
 
Pakistan won the US/Afghanistan war. The Haqqani Network, which is the controlling faction of the Taliban, is a "veritable arm" of ISI, Pakistan's intelligence agency. As long as Pakistan allowed the Haqqanis, the Taliban, and allied militias safe haven in the western part of their country, they could plan, equip, train, rest, and most importantly regenerate until we simply got tired and left. It took 18 years, but it worked.

Well played Pakistan, well played...
If Pakistan is our ally why would they fund the Taliban?
 
No I’m being serious I know now from the forums that Pakistan aids the Taliban but I always thought they were our allies or something like that
Well mate, now you know. Even my civilian experience studying Southwest Asian politics (a few classes) and listening to the guys and gals on the ground helped me understand the conundrum of ISI, the Taliban, and our tumultuous relationship with Pakistan.

Why you think they found UBL in a small Pakistani city not far from a military academy? Why do you think members of AQ slipped through Tora Bora into Pakistan? If that’s friendship and cooperation, I’d hate to see enmity.
 
Forgive me if I sounded a bit like Alex Jones in that reply. It’s just surreal to read these headlines and think back to 7th grade and watching the planes hit the Twin Towers.
I’m not sure what to think about these developments.
 
Forgive me if I sounded a bit like Alex Jones in that reply. It’s just surreal to read these headlines and think back to 7th grade and watching the planes hit the Twin Towers.
I’m not sure what to think about these developments.
I understand it’s shocking to me how involved they (Pakistan) were in keeping those Groups alive
 
No I’m being serious I know now from the forums that Pakistan aids the Taliban but I always thought they were our allies or something like that

OK fair enough. The deep dislike that AWP and I share for Pakistan is well known on the site and I thought you were teasing us.

Short version: the national interests of Pakistan and the US are fundamentally opposed when it comes to Afghanistan. For a while there, Pakistan was receiving a-billion-with-a-B or more dollars worth of aid money from us every year, and then plowing a good portion of it back into terror networks that kill our troops and undermine our national interests in Afghanistan. However, since they have the only viable land route into Afghanistan for us, and because they could cause a LOT more problems for us in the region if they really wanted to, we tolerated that for a very long time.

For simplicity's sake, think of the Haqqani Network (HQN) as the Delta Force of the Taliban. They get the best funding, they have the most capable troops, they pull off the most spectacular attacks. And they are trained, equipped, protected, and directed by Pakistan's ISI. This is not a secret, and I'm not talking out of school. The HQN says that they are subordinate to the Taliban, but there's a reason why a Haqqani is a lead negotiator.

There is also a reason why Osama bin Laden was living freely in a big compound just south of Pakistan's equivalent of West Point. ISI knew he was there. They know where ALL of the major leaders of the HQN, the Taliban, and every other major terror group living in Pakistan are, because they're all on the payroll.

Pakistan is after its own interests in Afghanistan, and I'm not mad at them for it. That's the way the world works. There are some things we cooperate with them on, because our interests align. But the war in Afghanistan is made in Waziristan. And that's the Paks' fault.

If you want to geek out over the details, here's an old but useful document that hits some of the main points:
 

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Question Why couldn’t the Afghans get their country together? After all we spent?

Here's the Cliff's Notes version: take alook at the socio-political dynamics of a tribal culture, then couple that with Islam, the opium trade and banditry over the course of 6 centuries... there's your answer.
 
Has anyone started watching this season of Homeland? Give it a whirl.
 
I understand it’s shocking to me how involved they (Pakistan) were in keeping those Groups alive

I'm honestly not trying to be a dick, but go back and read this entire thread, including the links posted. You'll have a glimmer of understanding then.

Also, go grab copies of Steve Coll's Ghost Wars and Directorate S. These should be mandatory reading for the entire forum IMO.

That will put you at about...1500+ pages for the two books alone (paperback editions) plus the 30 pages here and links. Figure 1600 pages of reading.

Theeeeeen when you're done with those go pick up The Great Gamble and Afghantsy to understand PK's role during the Soviet occupation.

And holla' at ya' boy when you need recommendations on books about The Great Game. Before I went to a Kindle my book shelf has a shelf and a half on Afghanistan alone.
 
Why you think they found UBL in a small Pakistani city not far from a military academy? Why do you think members of AQ slipped through Tora Bora into Pakistan? If that’s friendship and cooperation, I’d hate to see enmity.

Go check out the Kunduz airlift. We allowed PK to evacuate key TB leaders in November 2001. The flight included their ISI advisors.

Alex Jones can't come up with PK/ AFG stories that beat the real thing. The PK border incident with an SF team, how many of our convoys were "lost" or destroyed between Karachi and AFG, the amount of US equipment (new!) available in PK's bazaars, Mullah Omar (TB founder) living out his days in PK...that's scratching the surface.
 
If Pakistan is our ally why would they fund the Taliban?

They didn't: we gave Your tax dollars to Pakis who skimmed their cut and gave monies to the Talibs.

Ghani not happy with the deal (aka I need more money to live like Nickleback when I have to flee the country).

Afghan conflict: President Ashraf Ghani rejects Taliban prisoner release Afghan president rejects Taliban prisoner release
 
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Go check out the Kunduz airlift. We allowed PK to evacuate key TB leaders in November 2001. The flight included their ISI advisors.

Alex Jones can't come up with PK/ AFG stories that beat the real thing. The PK border incident with an SF team, how many of our convoys were "lost" or destroyed between Karachi and AFG, the amount of US equipment (new!) available in PK's bazaars, Mullah Omar (TB founder) living out his days in PK...that's scratching the surface.
Well, I’m grateful for y’all that have been there, seen/done that, and have come home to tell the tale.
 
For a while there, Pakistan was receiving a-billion-with-a-B or more dollars worth of aid money from us every year, and then plowing a good portion of it back into terror networks that kill our troops and undermine our national interests in Afghanistan.

They didn't: we gave Your tax dollars to Pakis who skimmed their cut and gave monies to the Talibs.

Therein lies the beauty of the war in Afghanistan.

We paid people to kill us.

Wrap your head around that, folks.
WE PAID THE PAKISTANIS TO KILL OUR GUYS.
"Why so angry, A-dub?"
WE PAID THE PAKISTANIS TO KILL OUR GUYS.
I don't quite follow, our good friends and allies did what?
WE PAID THE PAKISTANIS TO KILL OUR GUYS.
We gave them tens of billions of dollars and they did what?
WE PAID THE PAKISTANIS TO KILL OUR GUYS.
You're living in the past here, A-dub. Let bygones be bygones.
WE PAID THE PAKISTANIS TO KILL OUR GUYS.

FUCK PAKISTAN. IN THE GOAT ASS. WITH A NICKELBACK CD.
 
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