The Kill Team

Don't listen to anything a Pvt says. They don't know anything, that's why they are Pvt's.

I personally found the events laid out in the book “Black Hearts” to be far more disturbing than “Kill Team.”

Couldn't agree more on Black Heart's, that book is testament of what happens when leadership breaks down on all levels. Things about that book bother me to this day. And it's been 4 or 5 years since I read that book.
 
Has anyone seen the 2013 documentary The Kill Team?... Basically a few men in an Army infantry platoon murderred 3 Afhgani civilians in cold blood back in 2010. In the end, the men in the platoon were caught and brought to justice...


Probably always in the GWOT.

At the end of the movie, a private that was involved with the murders said that murders committed on civilian Afghanis were commonplace and took place all throughout combat positions in the military. Is this true? ...

No.
 
Don't listen to anything a Pvt says. They don't know anything, that's why they are Pvt's.



Couldn't agree more on Black Heart's, that book is testament of what happens when leadership breaks down on all levels. Things about that book bother me to this day. And it's been 4 or 5 years since I read that book.
Blackhearts should be required reading for all NCOs and Officers.
 
I really feel that with reading Blackhearts, you will have no choice but to increase your situational awareness as a leader. You'll be reminded that you have stay in touch with your troops and always know what's going on at the lowest level.
 

It really dives into all aspects of a breakdown, from continued supervision of discipline to health and welfare to moral management, to aspects of understanding the limitations of unit personnel vs mission requirements, etc, etc.

I absolutely agree it should be mandatory reading from TL's up to Brigade Cdr's. The book basically breaks down how the leadership from the ground up to Brigade level failed, resulting in unnecessary casualties, to war crimes and the rape and murder of a young girl and her family, and just about everything in between.

Can't recommend it enough brother. It will change the way you think as a leader.
 
One of my favorite college professors, who is about as far left as one can get, introduced me to that book in my Intro to Biography course.
That doesn’t surprise me. In addition to being well written, it portrays the US Army in a very unfavorable (albeit true) light.
 
Absolutely, and I wouldn't be shocked if that were the case. Either way, its a phenomenal book and one that everyone should read. I think it's been discussed on this site multiple times.
 
Absolutely, and I wouldn't be shocked if that were the case. Either way, its a phenomenal book and one that everyone should read. I think it's been discussed on this site multiple times.

Do you see anything in this book they would transfer to the business world?
 
Do you see anything in this book they would transfer to the business world?

Sure, I think there are many. Here are the first four that popped into my head, in no particular order:

1) INSPECT WHAT YOU EXPECT. Subordinates do well the things that the boss inspects. In just about any work environment, "shenanigans" is the default setting. If you don't want shenanigans to ensue in your team, get out there and check on them. Not only will this help them avoid doing the wrong thing, you will often catch them doing the right thing, which is also good. Example: Joe drinking, doing drugs, and generally screwing off at the traffic control points, because they knew there was literally zero chance of someone in authority rolling up on them.

2) LITTLE THINGS, WHEN LEFT UNCHECKED, BECOME BIG THINGS OVER TIME. Allowing subordinates to take shortcuts and ignore rules, even silly-seeming ones, is dangerous from a leadership perspective. If a deviation from a standard is required, then YOU make the call. When you allow your subordinates to pick and choose which rules they follow, they'll eventually abuse it to the point that they'll devolve to the point of doing whatever the hell they want. See also: shenanigans. Example: letting military courtesy and uniform standards slide eventually made the Soldiers in Black Hearts decide that they were the masters of their own disciplinary destiny, to the point where they decided to rape a 14-year-old girl and murder her and her entire family. This does NOT mean that there is a zero-defects standard when it comes to initiative or bona fide operational necessity, but it does mean that if there is a deviation, there better be a damn good reason other than "I felt like it."

3) THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR BEING PHYSICALLY PRESENT. Leadership is a contact sport. You have to be within arm's reach, at least periodically, of your subordinates. And it has to be in their natural habitat, not yours. Get out there and see what they are doing and how they are living. It's hard to manage effectively over email or through VTC, although sometimes that's the only way. This is different from inspections. Be there to lead, especially if a job is dirty, dangerous, or distasteful. Example: SFC Fenlason and CPT Goodwin were considered cowards by their men because they generally "led" from the FOB. This greatly limited their situational awareness, and more importantly, diminished their credibility with their troops.

And that leads us to the last lesson:

4) NEVER GIVE ANYONE A REASON TO THINK YOU"RE A COWARD. EVER. This is physically and morally. This applies up, laterally, and down. Have the guts to hold your own people responsible when it's required, and do what it takes to make sure the behavior is punished or corrected appropriately. Examples: PFC Green (the puported ringleader) was a dirtbag, and everyone knew it. But he was "our" dirtbag, so they kept making excuses for him and covering up for him until... well, if you don't know the details, read the book.
 
I finally watched the Kill Team yesterday courtesy of Amazon Prime.

- As I posted earlier in this thread, I don't buy the widespread killing allegation.
- As @Marauder06 said, it is basically Winfield's defense/ explanation.
- Where in the hell was the PL and PSG? You have the same squad killing civilians using the same story and you don't even care? Or did they and the movie decided to leave that out?
- I seriously can't understand Winfield's decision to report this while on deployment. He knows he's going back to the same group of guys who are murdering people? His leadership didn't hear the allegations and reassign him? The same with the other guy in the platoon? WTH was going on there?
- Posing with the people they murdered bothered me more than the actual murders. Disgusting.
 
I finally watched the Kill Team yesterday courtesy of Amazon Prime.

- As I posted earlier in this thread, I don't buy the widespread killing allegation.
- As @Marauder06 said, it is basically Winfield's defense/ explanation.
- Where in the hell was the PL and PSG? You have the same squad killing civilians using the same story and you don't even care? Or did they and the movie decided to leave that out?
- I seriously can't understand Winfield's decision to report this while on deployment. He knows he's going back to the same group of guys who are murdering people? His leadership didn't hear the allegations and reassign him? The same with the other guy in the platoon? WTH was going on there?
- Posing with the people they murdered bothered me more than the actual murders. Disgusting.

I asked Winfield that exact question. I believe his response was that the LT was "on the cot beside me." From what I remember, Winfield said words to the effect that the LT didn't participate in the drugs, murders, etc., but also didn't ask any questions when the privates were out late doing private things and coming back smelling like hash, and wasn't physically out there supervising / being present.

A bunch of the men featured in Black Hearts came back to West Point this year, including a few who had no love for each other. Justin Watt, the whistle blower, explained that after he reported Green's crimes, the battalion commander ordered him out on a checkpoint where he was more or less left out there alone an unafraid. The way Watt explained it, he believes the BC wanted him to get killed. I never talked to the BC so I don't have the other side of the story, but I share because it kind of relates to your observations of Winfield.
 
I asked Winfield that exact question. I believe his response was that the LT was "on the cot beside me." From what I remember, Winfield said words to the effect that the LT didn't participate in the drugs, murders, etc., but also didn't ask any questions when the privates were out late doing private things and coming back smelling like hash, and wasn't physically out there supervising / being present.

The LT should be charged with accessory to murder, cowardice, jaywalking, anything. No Honorable discharge, nothing.

"Responsible for all the platoon does or fails to do" is a phrase I heard often while in uniform.
 
At the end of the movie, a private that was involved with the murders said that murders committed on civilian Afghanis were commonplace and took place all throughout combat positions in the military. Is this true? To me it seems like there is something seriously wrong if so.

Not saying that I concur with the private or his silly ass observations but it always amuses me when people are so disturbed or shocked by actions in a wartime environment being less-than-civil or "cruel." You learn very quickly that what you find mentally bearable/acceptable needs to change drastically in order for you to come home with an ounce of sanity left let alone your own life.

Its also funny that nobody was ever an admin or logistics guy in Afghanistan - everyone was a gunfighter who saw all the evil the world had to offer...
 
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