The Military Pistol Training (M9)

Diamondback 2/2

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Give three reasons why it sucks, and three reasons why it’s a good pistol. Also give a brief description of your unit’s training with the M9 pistol (i.e. PMI length, what’s covered in the PMI, range time, and value added training)

Dislike:
1. The M9 has only a 15 round capacity, but is by far one of the largest 9mm pistols on the market.
2. The decock safety is to far away from the grip of the pistol, people with smaller hands have a harder time disengaging the safety. Also when racking the slide, the safety can be engaged on accident.
3. Locking block is horrible and needs to be replaced every 3000 rounds.

Like:
1. The M9 (rack grade) will hold 3 to 4 inch groups at 25 meters.
2. Disassembly and cleaning is easy.
3. Trigger guard is larger and is easy to fire while wearing gloves.

Basic PMI taught at MOB sites by my old unit is 4 hours and includes the following.
• Safety
• Clearing
• Loading/ Tac Load/ Unloading
• Disassembly/ reassembly.
• Correct stoppages.
• Basic fundamentals.
• LMTS/ EST 2000

Range time is about 8 hours, but shooters will only receive on average 45 min to 1 hour on the firing line. During this time they will fire 10 rounds for practice fire, and 40 rounds for qualification using the APQC.

Value added training is based on the instructor, but is often not covered due to time constraints.

IMO this training is far too little, and covers only enough to allow for a shooter to qualify. TM’s and FM’s are not used and, and the several qualification courses are not covered such as (CPQC, Night fire, NBC fire) also zero drawing from the holster training is covered. In my past experience this training is ineffective and should be changed. However, during past attempts to change the training doctrine. Commanders were reluctant due, to time (4 hours vs. 8 hours) and ammo use (50 rounds vs. 200 rounds).

So how do we fix this problem???
 

gunslinger

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Three reasons it sucks. 1.Too big. Soldiers with small hands have a tough time with it. 2. 9mm is not much of a stopper. And worse than it has to be due to using ball ammo. 3. Having a decock and external hammer and safty all make for more the shooter has to think about.

Three to the good. 1. Ive never had a real stoppage with a 92F. 2. Easy sports and takedown. 3. Heavy, points well for me.

Training in my unit with the M9 is a JOKE. They have us holstering weapons empty with the slide locked to the rear so the range master can see its safe. No shooting at all drawing from the holster. No low light or night fire. And nowhere near enough rounds to really train some of these young soldiers. And Im in an MP Company.
 

demo18c

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Three reasons it sucks. 1.Too big. Soldiers with small hands have a tough time with it. 2. 9mm is not much of a stopper. And worse than it has to be due to using ball ammo. 3. Having a decock and external hammer and safty all make for more the shooter has to think about.
Three to the good. 1. Ive never had a real stoppage with a 92F. 2. Easy sports and takedown. 3. Heavy, points well for me.

Training in my unit with the M9 is a JOKE. They have us holstering weapons empty with the slide locked to the rear so the range master can see its safe. No shooting at all drawing from the holster. No low light or night fire. And nowhere near enough rounds to really train some of these young soldiers. And Im in an MP Company.

We carry glocks and M9s, depends on the shooter but when the M9 is carried the safety is off with the weapon decocked.
 

Hitman2/3

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Dislikes:
1. 9mm to small/ can't use hydra shock
2. Only holds 15 +1 compared to glocks 17 +1
3. External saftey makes for more action when engaging target.

Likes:
1. Durable
2. Easy to strip
3. Fairly acurate

My units training with the pistol was pretty good, can't recall all the specifics. However, the Marine Corps pistol range sucked, to short, not enough rounds down range, no transitioning. Whats the good of showing somebody how to use their secondary weapon if you don't show them how and when to transition from their primary? Also up until fairly recently the holsters they issued sucked ass.
 
8

8'Duece

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Bad:

1. Safety/Decocker is too small in my opinion and should be kept in the decocked and safety off condition.

2. 9mm Luger ball ammo is a poor stopper. If used with high end JHP's then it's a mute point and will do it's job nicely.

3. Grip is a bit big and needs to have a more friendly 1911 style back strap and larger beavertail.

Good:

1. Decent mag capacity 15+1

2. One of the most accurate 9mm Luger pistols on the market. This id due to the delayed locking block action and not a Browning action with a high bore axis.

3. Easty field strip.


Some first line musts for the M9 Beretta:

1. Steel recoild guide rod.

2. Factory mags from Beretta. Not Checkmate or knockoffs.

3. Replace recoil spring every 3000 rounds.

4. Change out the grip panels to Hogues or Pachmyers. If possible use the CTC laser grips.

5. Get your CO to understand that decocking the weapon and leaving the safety off is just as advantagous as the SIG P226 used by NAVSPECWAR..................:)
 

RustyShackleford

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I will never understand why anyone would use a safety on a double action pistol where the initial trigger pull is 12 lbs. Hell, I'm a Glock man. Why use any external safety at all? When a pistol is drawn, there are only two things that are going to happen; someone is going to get shot or the pistol will be re-holstered.
 

Rabid Badger

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Bad:

Some first line musts for the M9 Beretta:

1. Steel recoild guide rod.

Agreed. I've never had a bent guide rod. New plastic guide rod was supposedly bought by army because the steel bent and to make the gun lighter...

2. Factory mags from Beretta. Not Checkmate or knockoffs.

Knockoff mags are compatible if you dremel out about 1/16th of an inch above the slot in the magazine so that the M9 mag catch can engage.

3. Replace recoil spring every 3000 rounds. Yup.

4. Change out the grip panels to Hogues or Pachmyers. If possible use the CTC laser grips.

Hogues are great. Tacky rubber with finger 'slots' = better grip. Pachs are too big....or you can go the backyard route and use a piece of inner tube.....cheap, easy...allows better grip....

5. Get your CO to understand that decocking the weapon and leaving the safety off is just as advantagous as the SIG P226 used by NAVSPECWAR..................:)

Agreed. Same as RS post below. De-cock, put it in the holster on safe. Another safety situation/issue that hasn't been discussed is that a lot of [old] and some new holsters are designed to put the M9 on fire when drawing. Problem is, it'll be that one time you have a bad guy drawing down on you and you have nanoseconds to squeeze 2 into him that you'll get a dry trigger pull because the pistol safety is still engaged.

'Fire' in the holster....de-cocked....RS made the point, too.......

10 rounds Familiarization? HS.......Let's see 8 hours X 10 rounds is 1 round every 48 minutes.....crazy.....(I know I know...the 'qual' is in there somewhere, too.....I'm a good instructor but I couldn't teach anyone pistol MMS in 10 rounds....That's a waste of range time...and then to qual after the 10??.......stupid ...)


RS quote
I will never understand why anyone would use a safety on a double action pistol where the initial trigger pull is 12 lbs. Hell, I'm a Glock man. Why use any external safety at all? When a pistol is drawn, there are only two things that are going to happen; someone is going to get shot or the pistol will be re-holstered.

We had a bad batch of locking blocks shipped to us in PR. They were breaking twice as fast as the good blocks. We traveled to/from the states a lot so had a whole new order picked up at FB and brought in....check the blocks to see if the regularity of breaking are all from the same company/lot/order....

(My M9 pull is only about 8.....with no soft primer strikes....shhhhh.....but I replace the hammer spring a lot)
 
W

WillBrink

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I will never understand why anyone would use a safety on a double action pistol where the initial trigger pull is 12 lbs.

LOL, funny. You know, it's human nature to try and make guns more complicated in an attempt to overcome lack of training to improve safety...:rolleyes:
 

Diamondback 2/2

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Very good point’s from everyone, and I really agree with a steel guide rod and or a +10 drive spring.

As for the decocking safety issue, I have actually quoted the TM/ FM to commanders before. The FM says that carrying the M9 in a hammer down (half cocked) Safety off is a safe way to carry the M9. However, most commanders dismiss it as the commander’s choice in how his soldier will carry their weapons. Also the new color code (weapon status) rules contradict the TM/ FM.

As for basic pistol training and qualification, as long as we allow STRAC to rule the amount of ammo used in training. The Army will maintain a lower level of skill set. Ideally I would like 8 hours for hands on, and 8 hours for range training. 250 rounds per soldier, 100 round for basic align the sights and move the trigger. 100 round used for slow fire practice and positions firing with (mag changes, ball and dummy, correct stoppages) and the 50 rounds for qualification.

I have proposed these types of changes to TSP/ TSB’s and was met with a strong “NO WAY”! I have also been told in the past, that any drifting from STRAC, or the TSP will result in my removal. It’s another case of the big army not wanting change…
 

AWP

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...in an attempt to overcome lack of training to improve safety...:rolleyes:

You "laugh" but pre-9/11 in the FL Guard an O's career depended upon his/ her unit's safety record; it was a bullet on our OER's. Both VA and FL had a series of jumping injuires so the States of VA and FL (intertwined by a common HQ, 3/20 SFG(A)) shut down jumping for around a year (the exact duration is lost to me, maybe ke4gde remembers) while the FL State safety Officer, a rotary-winged aviator, made recommendations to the SF BN CDR on how to better conduct airborne operations. That SF O-5 was not promoted despite the availability of an O-6 slot.

The Army has a whole magazine devoted to safety.

We are becoming risk adverse....or we already are there.
 

Rabid Badger

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The Army has a whole magazine devoted to safety.

We are becoming risk adverse....or we already are there.

Already there, and you'd think 9/11 would have changed that. Actually, it has, with the exception of some jack-ass 'O's that equate safety to OER's and promotions.

I can say that I was in a blue collar CIF....if you didn't work hard everyday, O's and warrants included, you were out.....rucksack in the hall shit....

M9's carried in de-cock mode, round in the pipe in the Rem shorty 870's, weapon on safe......charges primed ready for explosive entry...etc....with no accidents...

Training, training, training.....was the name of the game....'more sweat in training' mentality.

Transition was touched on in an earlier post. The M4/ to M9 transition can be trained in a dry fire environment, but of course it's not trigger time. M9 rapid mag change, holster draw Position 1-4 also, but again....

No rounds down range doesn't have to be a large detractor to training. Rounds on target are optimal, but muscle memory is integral to weapons handling also.......

:2c:
 

HeloMedic1171

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We're already there. what i never understood is how an rotor-wing aviator can input better ways to make Airborne ops safer..... the bottom line is this:

Jumping is inherently dangerous. people are going to get hurt in some form or fashion no matter what you do.

One weekend a month, 2 weeks a year, and 5 jumps a year is not enough time/jumps to keep the skills up, IMO. BUT - I'm a leg, so correct me if I'm wrong.

I think M9 training sucks. it doesn't cover anything about holsters or practical implementation of the weapon, i.e. transitioning form primary to sidearm. I have 2 junior medics now.... one thinks like i do "gimme all the ammo I can carry, and when he gets to close I'll let him have it all" and the other one is the opposite.... for some reason, his instructors in AIT told him he shouldn't even take an M9 if offered...... I was dumbfounded :uhh: I told him that the M9 is very accurate at close range, and was much easier to bring to bear if he needed it while working on a patient.... wtf? why am I having to convince someone to take another weapon?

3 goods:

I like the weight. i know some don't, I do.
15+1 is better than 8.
easy to strip and maintain

3 bads:

9mm
9mm
9mm

those are my biggest complaints with the weapon - it's 9mm. it needs to be bigger. I'm interested to hear the other illl comments and dislikes.
 

Marauder06

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I like the fact that it's got 15 rounds per mag, if I ever need to pull my sidearm it's probably because I need to shoot a lot of bullets quickly.

I'm OK with the fact that it's 9mm because that's what a lot of our own weapons as well as our allies use.

I like the fact that it has an ambidextrous safety and that it disassembles easily.

/////

I don't like the fact that it's so big- give me something with a shorter barrel.

I don't dig the fact that it's not easy to mount things like a light or a laser.

I'd prefer our sidearms were made by a traditional American company- like Colt or Smith and Wesson.
 
R

rangerpsych

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hell even something german made would work well.

size weight durability my 3 complaints... for a pistol to be too large for mungo is silly... when a doublestack 14 round 40 isn't too large.... fixit.

round could be better but you get what you get...

the biggest thing is that its considered a secondary weaons system and most soldiers have enough issues with being able to use their primary weapons system properly let alone train on a secondary..

couple that with limited ammo, dumb commanders that are scared of burning ammo.......and you get joe who can't shoot a pistol.

it takes time to train to use a pistol..and it takes rounds.

dry fire is a valid training tool but I personally prefer to shoot bullets... pretending gets boring.
 

shortbrownguy

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Already there, and you'd think 9/11 would have changed that. Actually, it has, with the exception of some jack-ass 'O's that equate safety to OER's and promotions.

I can say that I was in a blue collar CIF....if you didn't work hard everyday, O's and warrants included, you were out.....rucksack in the hall shit....

M9's carried in de-cock mode, round in the pipe in the Rem shorty 870's, weapon on safe......charges primed ready for explosive entry...etc....with no accidents...

Training, training, training.....was the name of the game....'more sweat in training' mentality.

Transition was touched on in an earlier post. The M4/ to M9 transition can be trained in a dry fire environment, but of course it's not trigger time. M9 rapid mag change, holster draw Position 1-4 also, but again....

No rounds down range doesn't have to be a large detractor to training. Rounds on target are optimal, but muscle memory is integral to weapons handling also.......

:2c:

Couldn't have said it better. Dry firing will take you 90% of the way.
 
R

rangerpsych

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lmao, it does get old after about 50 time every other day:doh: I use beam hit, dryfire and put about 750-1000 rounds down range a month, and I am still not at the level I want to be :mad:

I miss being on ft. benning... that round count for your monthly was the average daily count between medicchick and I...

some people would ask why the top of my chamber on my expert was polished compared to a stock expert... the bluing wore off from slide/barrel friction from repeated firing.....after it wore off I took my dremel and some polishing compound and polished it to a mirror, as well as the feed ramp... didn't need it really but every little bit helps, right? sorta like massaging your gas regulator for a mildly higher ROF ;)

good times and a dillon reloader...should make a song about that...
 

demo18c

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Already there, and you'd think 9/11 would have changed that. Actually, it has, with the exception of some jack-ass 'O's that equate safety to OER's and promotions.

I can say that I was in a blue collar CIF....if you didn't work hard everyday, O's and warrants included, you were out.....rucksack in the hall shit....

M9's carried in de-cock mode, round in the pipe in the Rem shorty 870's, weapon on safe......charges primed ready for explosive entry...etc....with no accidents...

Training, training, training.....was the name of the game....'more sweat in training' mentality.

Transition was touched on in an earlier post. The M4/ to M9 transition can be trained in a dry fire environment, but of course it's not trigger time. M9 rapid mag change, holster draw Position 1-4 also, but again....

No rounds down range doesn't have to be a large detractor to training. Rounds on target are optimal, but muscle memory is integral to weapons handling also.......

:2c:

Well you know as well as I do that there is a different mentality in the Company because of the job and the specified mission.
 

Diamondback 2/2

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Well you know as well as I do that there is a different mentality in the Company because of the job and the specified mission.

That is 100% of the problem!!! Line units, have about a half and half make up of High Speed, and shitbag. Soldiers about to ETS, or just holding out for their GI bill. Not to mention the troops that already knows everything…


Dry training, either moving the trigger, drawing from the holster, transitions, reloading, and correcting a stoppage, is the best training you can do. However, the person who is doing the dry training has to want to get better. The army thinks it’s a lack of understanding with the younger generation, “the video game soldiers” so the army gets al these new cool computer training aids. But the marksmanship is still poor; it’s not the new equipment. It’s the lazy fucking soldiers who suck the life out of the rest of the unit.

You can not train the unwilling, but you can make them meet a standard. Make the standard higher, and you will force the shitbags to improve…
 
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