Transgenders Free to Enlist Starting 2018

[Locksteady]

May we live in interesting times.

(CNN)The Pentagon said Monday that it will begin processing transgender applicants to the military on January 1.

That development follows an earlier ruling by a federal judge on Monday who declined the US government's request to put on hold an order allowing transgender individuals to join the military beginning in January. The decision means transgender people will be free to enlist in the new year.

"In sum, having carefully considered all of the evidence before it, the Court is not persuaded that Defendants will be irreparably injured by allowing the accession of transgender individuals into the military beginning on January 1, 2018," Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly said in her ruling.
"As required by recent federal district court orders, the Department of Defense recently announced it will begin processing transgender applicants for military service on January 1, 2018. This policy will be implemented while the Department of Justice appeals those court orders," the Defense Department said in a written statement.

The Pentagon said it was already following a court ruling last week and is "planning to prepare to access transgender persons," as of January 1, US Army Maj. Dave Eastburn, a Pentagon spokesman, said in a written statement following the ruling.

White House press secretary Sarah Sanders said the Department of Justice is "reviewing the legal options" on court ruling on transgender Americans serving in the military.
"They are simply complying with a court order and preparing to implement a previous policy to remain in compliance. The Department of Justice is currently reviewing the legal options to ensure that he President's directive can be implemented," Sanders said.

Complete story here.

 

[TLDR20]

But POTUS said...

 

[BenKC]

It'd be interesting to see some peoples thoughts on this (obviously in a non-offensive manner). Over thanksgiving I spoke briefly with my uncle about it and he was mentioning having to go through mandatory sensitivity and diversity classes, and how his SGM wasn't the most comfortable with the entire situation.

 

[Gunz]

Much ado about nothing. I honestly don't think very many transgender people will rush off to enlist. The military will absorb those that do, just like it absorbs everybody else.

 

[TLDR20]

Much ado about nothing. I honestly don't think very many transgender people will rush off to enlist.

I agree. Why keep people from filling vacant slots?

Where I am on the fence is paying for transition surgeries. I am only on the fence though because as we see on here tons of guys join with pre-existing conditions, as well as have elective surgeries once in (lasik, others).

 

[BenKC]

I agree. Why keep people from filling vacant slots?

Where I am on the fence is paying for transition surgeries. I am only on the fence though because as we see on here tons of guys join with pre-existing conditions, as well as have elective surgeries once in (lasik, others).

I think another one of the big things is, if you get a big group of people in any sort of 'group'(I use the term broadly, in this case transgenders) where theres a large public spotlight on that group. Theres going to be the people that think they're going to be entitled to special treatment just because of it. And (to my best guess) some people might be more strict on how they act towards them just for the fact they don't want them to complain.

Especially during trainings, ill just use BCT as example. The softer hearted people that think their entitled just because of the transition, might do what the large stereotype does now and create a large issue out of it. Which is just a mess for everyone involved.

 

[TLDR20]

I think another one of the big things is, if you get a big group of people in any sort of 'group'(I use the term broadly, in this case transgenders) where theres a large public spotlight on that group. Theres going to be the people that think they're going to be entitled to special treatment just because of it. And (to my best guess) some people might be more strict on how they act towards them just for the fact they don't want them to complain.

Especially during trainings, ill just use BCT as example. The softer hearted people that think their entitled just because of the transition, might do what the large stereotype does now and create a large issue out of it. Which is just a mess for everyone involved.

What?
Have you been to BCT?

Do you have any experience in the service?

 

[BenKC]

What?
Have you been to BCT?

Do you have any experience in the service?

No sir, just reflecting off the conversation I had with my uncle (who is currently enlisted).

Was just pointing out one of the reasons people might disagree with allowing transgender's to enlist. Which in my own personal thoughts is, if someone wants to serve their country, they should be able to without any sort of discrimination.

 

[AWP]

No sir, just reflecting off the conversation I had with my uncle (who is currently enlisted).

Whether or not your uncle proves to be correct, I would encourage you to form your own opinions through experience before sharing those with the board. I can talk to a doctor and "what if" med school, but think of how empty my opinions will sound. The same goes for you and the military right now.

 

[TLDR20]

My question to you @BenKC is have you ever seen the stereotype you refer to? I have never seen in person a trans person begging for special treatment. I have seen them agitating for equal treatment. To be treated as they identify whether that is male or female.

I can see there will be problems, particularly as it relates to PT, standards and living accommodations, however I don’t think those are insurmountable, not reasons from barring people from service.

I think like someone else pointed out,very few trans people are jumping up and down saying “send me, send me”. But if there are some we should send them.

 

[BenKC]

Whether or not your uncle proves to be correct, I would encourage you to form your own opinions through experience before sharing those with the board. I can talk to a doctor and "what if" med school, but think of how empty my opinions will sound. The same goes for you and the military right now.

I should've worded my reply there better, I was simply reflecting over what we both talked about (not necessarily his opinion on the fact, but a subject that came up during it). Anyways my apologies for not wording it as well as I should have. My comment was from a completely civilian manner, not from someone with experience.

My question to you @BenKC is have you ever seen the stereotype you refer to? I have never seen in person a trans person begging for special treatment. I have seen them agitating for equal treatment. To be treated as they identify whether that is male or female.

I can see there will be problems, particularly as it relates to PT, standards and living accommodations, however I don’t think those are insurmountable, not reasons from barring people from service.

I think like someone else pointed out,very few trans people are jumping up and down saying “send me, send me”. But if there are some we should send them.

Ive never met anyone apart of that steryotype, no. But I did have a class last year with a trans who was a enjoyable person to be around.

And as I said above I suppose I did word my comment a bit bad. The stereotype isn't that large, and I should've worded it better.

I wonder how the different branches will go about making the accommodations though.

 

[Ooh-Rah]

@BenKC

Good response. You should stop now so that we can get back on topic.

 

[DocIllinois]

I wonder how the different branches will go about making the accommodations though.

Ask and ye shall receive. Or something like that.

DOD Transgender Policy

 

[Devildoc]

One of my issues, my biggest issue, is this: what kind of medical supportive therapy is required to undergo/maintain a change, and does it impact deployability? And if the DOD is OK with people already in medical therapy to join, will the DOD now look at the rest of the bullshit meds it views as verboten with enlistment?

 

[Kakashi66223]

@Devildoc, I see a admin seperation loop hole closing. Soon the Armed Forces will be like a Roach Motel.
-With the amount and availability of meds needed for therapy I don't see how this is advantageous for the govt and the deployability of said individual either.

I've seen this for sometime now in different forms. @TLDR20 is right too, why limit what the recruiting pool size is by excluding. The individuality should get lost in basic anyway-- where everyone is the same. E0 is a nobody until they prove otherwise. Anyway, maybe the few transgenders that actually immediately join and process through may fit in, maybe not, let them prove they can succeed. Maybe they are set up for failure, it's not for me to decide.

Quick tangent. Drawing on my own experience I'm gonna drop a news headline that was controversial in the same way. Although it not necessary to follow it, just provides further context of what I bumped into walking my dog.​

​

Protesters gather in opposition to Hobby Lobby over contraception healthcare controversy​

​

I walked my dog along this stretch of road(used to), came upon this picket line. So I asked what the hub-bub was about because they really wanted my attention. Asked if they worked there, and the answer is, no. They were there because they felt the women's rights are being forcefully removed by an employer they did not work for. Rather than make a big deal about it, I walked on.​

Where I was going with the tangent was: sometimes those that really want to drive the issue (protesting) really aren't benefiting in the successful outcome of their protest. It's not too far fetched that some groups or people do things just to do them because it bothers another group or person.

So looking at this emotionless using logic. To be enlisted or commissioned as a a transgender you must be re-plumbed the opposite sex before initial entry, the commanders hand out pg.9 looks like a crock of shit. Found in the link @DocIllinois posted. Transvestites are not Transgender. Without completion of gender reassignment surgery I would speculate the military may recognise a person by birth certificate indicated gender and not transgender as used biologically or legally.

My opinion on this is the same as my view on Pvt Manning, surgery should be paid for by the individual.

 

[R.Caerbannog]

I gotta say that I'm honestly confused about all the different changes occurring in the military. I also get the feeling, that the changes being pushed aren't for the benefit of guys like Joe. I feel that time, resources, and personnel that could be going to support Joe, are instead being redirected for some sociopolitical sideshow.

Let me put it like this, from what I've seen and experienced, Joe pretty much gets shafted by everyone. Everything from equipment, supply, and personnel shortages are all a part of the daily grind for Joe, alongside other common factors present in garrison or a theater of operations. Heck, I've even seen a disparity in the amount and quality of medical care given to grunts in comparison to support classes. I.e. physical therapy not having room for us dumb grunts, because it's full of support people who got hurt playing soccer. That sort of thing.

I don't understand how adding personnel that have these preexisting medical/mental conditions make our forces stronger. The only thing I see happening is support and resources being taken away from Joe, either directly or indirectly.

We turn people away from military service for a variety of reasons that are either mental, physical, moral, or any mix of these. An all volunteer force, usually means that the armed services can cherry pick the individuals that best suit the needs of the whole. When an individual no longer fits the mold of what the forces need due to age, injury, etc, they are replaced. So why are the services now cool with being inclusive? Why do commanders need a 72 page handbook on transgender service? Why are we even putting time and resources into this fallacy?

I'm sorry if this offends anyone, but I really don't think gender dysphoria has a place in our military.

 

[Gunz]

I have a feeling a sex-change is a little more involved and a lot more expensive than lasik. At least with better eyesight you might be a better shot. So if there's no practical benefit to the military, the military--hence the taxpayers--shouldn't have to pay for trans surgery. That is where I would draw the line.

 

[Kheenbish]

I remember a few weeks ago everyone was freaking out about how the Army was thinking about "lowering" it's standards to let someone who might of had mental issues/depression into their branch of service. How could they do this, we can't have a mental person handling weapons.

Now they are allowing people who literally identify themselves as the opposite gender they were born as, as if that person might never had a mental illness/issue or maybe been depressed about how they were a man trapped in a woman's body or vice versa into the military and everyone says good job. I just don't see the difference.

 

[TLDR20]

I have a feeling a sex-change is a little more involved and a lot more expensive than lasik. At least with better eyesight you might be a better shot. So if there's no practical benefit to the military, the military--hence the taxpayers--shouldn't have to pay for trans surgery. That is where I would draw the line.

For sure there is a difference. My point was that at the end of the day it is an elective procedure, a cheap helpful one, but a choice that impacts the force nonetheless.

My gripe with allowing trans people to serve is along those lines. I make this argument to my most liberal of friends: they have a preexisting condition. We keep people out of the service with pins in their legs, but we should be expected to take someone with potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical liability? That argument tends to be one people don’t think about.

All trans people don’t want the surgery. Some have already had it. I don’t know what the right answer is here.

I also like to think about how we all Love the idea of universal service ala Starship Troopers, I am a big fan of that as well. But then when these people who are denied service push to join or remain, we throw a fit. I say we because this is one of the issues where I sway both ways. I see both sides and agree with both sides. I think it is a complicated issue with no easy fix.

 

[8482farm]

I guess it'll come down to how DoD defines transgender in instruction. Are they going to be segregated by gender identification or biological sex? Meaning, if a recruit is biologically of male sex but identifies as female gender but wishes to abstain from a sex change will they be placed in a male or female compartment?