Trigger Control is a myth.

[busdriver]

I agree. Poorly worded question on my part. If you were re-designing the training, what would it look like?

The first problem is I don't think the military really knows what it wants the end product of training to look like. The AF half ass trains accuracy, then tries to make it somewhat tactical by adding a really slow par time that doesn't really matter. What's a reasonable standard of performance for a FOB dweller for self defense? I seriously don't know what's reasonable for a new shooter after one day of training.

I haven't shot the full (academics and shooting with a full class, versus just shooting over lunch with a CATM dude watching) AF qual in probably 4 years, so it may have changed but I always thought it seemed like a cop qual. I don't need to learn to shoot over the hood of a car or draw from the "interview position." Most folks don't have the marksmanship fundamentals to be screwing around at 25 yards, or shooting snail's pace Mozambique drills. I think most folks (at least in the AF) would be better served by standing and shooting at 2" dots at 7 yards.

 

[Gunz]

A "reasonable standard of performance for an FOB dweller" in my opinion would be a familiarity with all organic defense weapons he/she might have to wield in an emergency, the ability to hit targets at 200 yards, change mags or belts and clear jams. I don't think the average fobbit has to necessarily be proficient in combat shooting, but they need to know how to operate the weapons around them and hit what they're aiming at.

It's too late to learn when the bad guys are in the wire.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

The real problem with the way the military (Army) approaches marksmanship and weapons training, is that they have very few SME's to troop ratio. Simple shit like qualified expert, but is that troop really an expert? Or did they just meet a standard?

Running a 2-3 week marksmanship instructor course for say everyone who graduated PLDC/WLC before they can attend BNOC or whatever it is now.

Shit can all the pop up ranges and go back to KD ranges.

Development of an actual standard that truly represents classification of the soldiers skill.

Nuke all the overboard risk management associated with taking a unit to the range.

I can go on for a few page's, but bottom line is that they need to kill the myths of current training by reeducation and revise the way we view "trained" vs "qualified". Fuck simply running btn level marksmanship matches on a quarterly bases would unfuck a massive amount of the current bullshit system.

 

[Etype]

This article is a gross oversimplification of a complicated range of tasks.

If you're trying to shoot a sub 2.5 sec bill drill from the holster, you're going to be slapping the hell out of the trigger. All of the high speed video I've seen of people shooting that fast shows their finger coming off the trigger. But, you're also not worried about your breathing- I'd argue most people are holding their breath the whole time, but the fact is they have no clue.

Take it to the other end of the spectrum and shoot a bullseye drill from 25 or 35m, every good shooter and going to slow down and do proper everything.


In addition, if you guys aren't familiar with Brian Enos' training philosophies, you should do some reading. To paraphrase, most of your training should be done at the extremes. Train extreme speed and extreme accuracy, then spend a little bit of time in the middle- you'll find that you're now faster and more accurate.

 

[busdriver]

And there's the crux of the training problem. What do we want a military/police shooter to be capable of? Should they be NRA bullseye shooters or USPSA, or IDPA shooters?

Ben Stoeger has some interesting training material as well.

ETA: As I'm starting down the USPSA path, I'm realizing I have to fix a lot of crappy habits developed over years of shooting a different (slower) way.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

Bulls eye vs Practical shooting?

Both, you need to have the fundamental ability to make consistently accurate hits. You also need to be able to apply it with speed and practical use. A lot of USPSA GM's still shoot groups and bulls eye drills. Actually Brian Enos specifically recommends it in his book.

 

[busdriver]

I agree in concept. I apologize, I meant the comment as a bit of hyperbole. Short of issuing pistols to take home and dry fire, training your average dude/dudette to an actual competitive standard isn't going to happen.

Fun accuracy/speed drill: Frank Garcia's dot drill. 7yds from a draw, 6 shots into a 2 inch dot, 5 second time limit, 6 dots on the target to complete drill. I think I've only cleaned one or two dots since I started trying this, but damned if my misses aren't a lot closer.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

Well in the context of Mil/LE, it doesn't change much. I look at bulls eye as the focus of the fundamentals of marksmanship (basic understanding/application). As the more practical training is more of a "learn how to apply it in practical use" as in now take those basics and learn to make them work in a real world (sorta kinda) application.

I guess the point being is, when learning and or checking the basics, bulls eye is probably the more applicable method. As where practical shooting is more the learning and pushing the boundaries of practical applications. If that makes any sense.

 

[busdriver]

A focus on fundamentals is probably most applicable given the relatively low level of pistol experience, but I also tend to think having basic qual folks shooting at 25 yards is a huge waste of time. The "practical" aspect that I've seen at that level looks like some sort of slow motion gun kata martial arts stance practice with a slow fire group at the end.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

Using the same ideology, a lot of LEO's do not train on bullseye or group/25m quals. They will practice from the holster, at varying distances (mostly close 10y and in) and in some cases incorporating more advanced level techniques (barricade work, shooting on the move, etc). However, suffering the same lack of funding/training time, they tend to be horribly deficient in application. This is very prevalent when observed shooting next to a competitive shooter (be it a bullseye or practical competition).

The big issue, is not really the standards used as much as the preparation training, and more so having the knowledge instructors/trainers available to provide the training. This is obvious due to the amount of people from all walks of life seeking out training outside of their organizations. Example being SOF guys seeking training from individuals from the competitive areas and or teir one SOF veterans, etc.

With regards to the Army, we need smarter people providing the training and subject expertise vs Sgt Joe Shmo, who knows just as much as Pvt snuffy, and only has become slightly better at meeting the standards.

Leadership plays a big role, need commanders and SRNCO's who embrace making things better, instead of sticking to the status quo of "we do it like the book says".

I'm not necessarily in disagreement with you, but think you are evaluating a broad skill set through a narrow view.

 

[Hillclimb]

I also tend to think having basic qual folks shooting at 25 yards is a huge waste of time.

25m slow fire is where your fundamentals and mistakes really show. The degree of your trigger control/heeling/anticipating/grip/etc is easier to identify/more pronounced at the 25m. I could point at the target at 7, 10 and (nobody quote me on this one) probably 15, and still hit black without looking at the sights.

Small angular deviation/sloppy fundamentals are easier to get away with at the closer yard lines. I don't think firing at the 25yd line needs to make up the majority of the qual, but it's definitely not a waste of time.

 

[busdriver]

My view is probably narrower than you realize I'm in the Air Force after all, basic qual here can be downright scary. The thing is, the folks I've seen sometimes can't hit black at 7 yards using the sights. Even folks that don't have problems qualifying sometimes can't do better than an 8 inch group at 7 yards. I shoot at 25 yards for all the reasons mentioned, but the folks I'm talking about are just flinging bullets down range and getting nothing out of it and all of their mistakes and flaws in the fundamentals are glaringly obvious at much closer ranges.

Better instructors would help, better student/instructor ratio would help just as much. What would really help is letting the instructors tailor their instruction and course of fire to the students' skill level. Let the qual course of fire be relatively short range and "easy" but challenge shooters during the practice portion?

 

[Red-Dot]

My view is probably narrower than you realize I'm in the Air Force after all, basic qual here can be downright scary. The thing is, the folks I've seen sometimes can't hit black at 7 yards using the sights. Even folks that don't have problems qualifying sometimes can't do better than an 8 inch group at 7 yards. I shoot at 25 yards for all the reasons mentioned, but the folks I'm talking about are just flinging bullets down range and getting nothing out of it and all of their mistakes and flaws in the fundamentals are glaringly obvious at much closer ranges.

This comes as a shock to you? Big Blue does NOT put much emphasis on basic marksmanship unless you are in a few selected career fields.

 

[busdriver]

Ha, not shocked at all. More lamentation I suppose. If the qual courses are considered too easy or a joke, the Big Blue answer is to make the qual harder or "more tactical" but not afford more time or leeway for the CATM folks to actually instruct anything. Unfortunately "just in time training" really means ball wash.

 

[DA SWO]

Ha, not shocked at all. More lamentation I suppose. If the qual courses are considered too easy or a joke, the Big Blue answer is to make the qual harder or "more tactical" but not afford more time or leeway for the CATM folks to actually instruct anything. Unfortunately "just in time training" really means ball wash.

AF qual course sucks because cops are in charge.
Making every day Airmen shoot a cop qual course fails the common sense test.

 

[busdriver]

True fact right there.