U.S Marines Force Recon Surgically Strikes Building During Notional Raid

[Teufel]

Thanks B&S for the response. I got out in the late 90's I was an 0311 and always thought highly of Recon I passed the indoc as a young LCPL but my orders were sent back by my Btn Commander, he wouldn't release me to go over there. Back then I always thought highly of Recon they had some damn good Marines and always thought they would get called upon to do specialized missions if the shit ever hit the fan.

It just seems form the open source info I have read it looks like Recon is doing pretty much conventional stuff. I was shocked to read that the first combat jump Recon performed since Vietnam was in Iraq around 04 or so if I recall correctly and it sounded like a one time thing and the staff NCO's kicked all the junior guys off the mission so they could get a jump. If thats the case whats the point, thats a lot of wasted resources keeping guys qualified for missions they are never going to get the chance to do. I'm not trying to sir the pot but is Recon just a bunch of grunts that get a little nicer gear and train to do specialized missions but never really get a chance to do them.

There have been times early in the Iraq war when Recon Marines owned battlespace and operated like grunts. Recon Marines have done a lot of direct action raids and reconnaissance in support of OIF/OEF. There hasn't been a lot of demand for specialized insertion for most forces in OIF/OEF and the Marine Reconnaissance community is no different. Most commanders, both SOF and conventional, are unwilling to accept the risk of allowing small teams to parachute into missions. I understand that some guys are doing it, especially way up in the food chain, but by and large there isn't a huge demand for it. That doesn't make Recon Marines a bunch of grunts with nicer gear.

 

[Blackevo110]

I do a lot of reading from case studies, to personal accounts, to memiors. I can't say I've read something that makes me think Recon is conventional by any standards. I have a few buddies headed that way and a few who have been doing it for years, some of these guys are anything but conventional.

 

[Gunning]

Its my understanding that at least in the first few years of OEF conventual forces played a supporting role to special operation forces, where in previous conflicts it was more the other way around. Over the last 10 years it has been impressive how each unit in USSOCOM has taken their game to another level they have have all defined their niche and are getting plenty of experience doing it in combat and it pretty well documented. Personally I have been impressed with what the Rangers have done the missions they conduct and the tempo they do it at is outstanding. I assumed that Recon will always be tasked or will be there to support the Marine Task Force Commander as they should but I just haven't heard much of what recon's role has been in the past two wars, have they taken it to the next level like the rest of the SF community. I know standing up MARSOC must have hit Recon really hard and it had to take some time to replace the experience lost from those units.

 

[pardus]

Its my understanding that at least in the first few years of OEF conventual forces played a supporting role to special operation forces, where in previous conflicts it was more the other way around. Over the last 10 years it has been impressive how each unit in USSOCOM has taken their game to another level they have have all defined their niche and are getting plenty of experience doing it in combat and it pretty well documented. Personally I have been impressed with what the Rangers have done the missions they conduct and the tempo they do it at is outstanding. I assumed that Recon will always be tasked or will be there to support the Marine Task Force Commander as they should but I just haven't heard much of what recon's role has been in the past two wars, have they taken it to the next level like the rest of the SF community. I know standing up MARSOC must have hit Recon really hard and it had to take some time to replace the experience lost from those units.

I think there are some things in your post that a few would have issues with. Others are better placed to say what they are than I though.

 

[Board and Seize]

It just seems form the open source info I have read it looks like Recon is doing pretty much conventional stuff. I was shocked to read that the first combat jump Recon performed since Vietnam was in Iraq around 04 or so if I recall correctly and it sounded like a one time thing and the staff NCO's kicked all the junior guys off the mission so they could get a jump. If thats the case whats the point, thats a lot of wasted resources keeping guys qualified for missions they are never going to get the chance to do. I'm not trying to sir the pot but is Recon just a bunch of grunts that get a little nicer gear and train to do specialized missions but never really get a chance to do them.
...
I assumed that Recon will always be tasked or will be there to support the Marine Task Force Commander as they should but I just haven't heard much of what recon's role has been in the past two wars, have they taken it to the next level like the rest of the SF community. I know standing up MARSOC must have hit Recon really hard and it had to take some time to replace the experience lost from those units.

Gunning,

As Teufel noted in his response, there has been a SOF-community-wide decline in the operational use of specialized insertion capabilities. That said, insertions do not make the operator. Recon has in OIF/OEF, and continues, to execute a variety of missions that are typically reserved to SOF. But let's be clear that Marine Recon is a conventional unit, reporting to conventional commanders, although with SOF-like capabilities.

I actually appreciate the points/questions that you are bringing up, and the opportunity to dispel some myth here. Yes, Recon units have often been utilized in the wars as provisional infantry. Yes, we have been given straight-leg infantry jobs. And we excelled at them. That is one of those 'victim of one's own success' kind of things. When you take a group of talented, skilled, and trained guys, they tend to do well at whatever you give them. Add that to the fact that (until now with the recent rewrite of MCWP 2-25 Ground Reconnaissance which will be taught at all levels of officer PME) very few officers really understand the capabilities of, and how to properly employ Recon units, and you get something of a bastardized mission-set.

It should also be noted that the Recon community (and to a lesser extent, the entire USMC) is facing something of an identity crisis. Yes, the creation of MARSOC has something to do with this. Until 1st Force woke up one morning and were told that they were now MARSOC, Recon (specifically Force Recon) was always the Marine Corps' SOF equivalent. While not under SOCOM, we trained and operated with SOF units, and maintained similar skill sets. But all of a sudden, there was a new beast that officially filled that role. With the loss of that role (and the wars raging) Recon units became jacks of all trades. We were used for a broad spectrum of missions, conventional and special. I myself participated (during the course of a single deployment to Iraq - during which my battalion held it's own battlespace) in dozens of DA-style hard hits and numerous counter-sniper and counter-IED SR missions. This was between what would now be called VSO missions. So, does the Marine Corps want Recon to be SOF or not?

No, because then the Marine Cops would lose Recon to SOCOM just like they did MARSOC. They want a SOF-like force, with SOF capabilities, that fits within the conventional organization.

Recon still does plenty of specialized missions. As SOF units become even more over-tasked, the Recon community is starting to pick up the slack. We have guys involved in JSOTFs, one of my units received SOCPAC tasking and we did a FID mission. Once the big Marine Corps figures things out, we are actually sitting in a sweet spot. Recon gets the training, gear, and budget to conduct specialized missions. We can and do get tasking from the TSOCs. But we work for the Marine Corps as a conventional force. We are kind of in a grey area that allows us a certain flexibility that few other units possess.

TL;DR:
Recon is not just grunts with nice toys. Recon does conduct specialized missions. Recon is, and continues to, "take it to the next level," just like the rest of the SOF community. As the wars wind down, but SOF taskings increase, expect to see Recon taking on more work and a larger role.

 

[Gunning]

B&S thanks that was an out standing post! I in no way in any of my previous posts was trying to diminish anything Recon has done, just trying to spur a discussion on doctrine. I could see how it could be frustrating when the higher headquarters your working for doesn't truly understand your capabilities. Thanks for clearing up a few misconceptions I had.

 

[Board and Seize]

Gunning,

No worries. Don't worry, I didn't think you were attacking Recon or anything. There is a lot of misinformation out there about the community and Recon's role and capabilities, so I jumped at the opportunity to set a few of them straight. The real problem though, as you point out, is when the Marine Corps doesn't understand how to use Recon. I just hope that this self-corrects over the next few years.

There are a lot of really smart and dedicated Recon Marines working right now to fix this at the battalions, HQMC, and the pentagon. The Marine Corps needs to figure it out soon though, because with all the coming budget cuts, units that don't have a clearly defined niche are going to find themselves under the axe.

-B&S

 

[dknob]

Hey brother - what do you mean the entire USMC is going through an identity crisis?
Board and Seize

 

[Board and Seize]

dknob,

Well, I was lucky enough to go to a few conferences last year and sit in on some discussions.

Background: Every so often, the country/government looks at the DoD budget and says, "Hey, isn't this Marine Corps thing kind of redundant?" The Corps has a whole mythology about how every time America says, "Hands off! We need our Marines." In reality, there have been a few pivotal and vocal supporters in the Congress. Right now this is starting to happen again. The USMC is not oblivious to this, however and constantly tries to get out ahead of it. There is pretty wide consensus that the DoD as a whole needs to shift from a HIC footing to an IW footing. SOF budgets grow, while GP forces are getting cut.

Historically and traditionally, the USMC has been a small, adaptable, and capable branch that often filled an SO role (going back to Vietnam, Korea, the WW's, and further back). So there is one narrative that the Corps is perfectly suited to this type of work. There is another, competing narrative that is bogged down in 'tradition' and bureaucratic inertia. This one says things like "If it was good enough for Chesty Puller, then it is good enough for me!" At the same time, people who think like this tend to be totally oblivious to the fact that guys like Chesty Puller had unconventional mindsets and often bucked the status quo. These people tend to be more concerned with the garrison setting and marching and crap like that.

So you have these competing schools of thought. One wants every Marine to be a Drill Instructor and look pretty. The other is born of 11 solid years of combat and couldn't care less about that stuff.

Back to the conferences. So some of the more senior leadership in the Corps are very concerned with "relevancy". How is the Marine Corps relevant in the current environment, and the near future. But they are actually concerned with convincing everyone that their ideas and constructs are relevant, rather than adapting and actually becoming relevant. There is a major generational gap between the pre-war and all-war guys. The only problem is that the current crop of leadership (officer and enlisted) are all pre-war, and bring that mentality to the table. The guys who grew up in the wars are just starting to reach senior levels (again, officer and enlisted). The next 5-10 years are going to be a struggle between these two groups (which generally correspond to the schools of thought or narratives that I mentioned earlier). That, in a nutshell, is the identity crisis.

TL;DR:
Senior leadership who had their mindsets formed before the wars are still in charge. They are more concerned with the status quo than anything else (painting with a broad brush, I know). Mid-level leadership that had their military formative years during the wars are starting to reach senior leadership. They are more concerned with getting the job done. These groups are struggling for control over the future direction of the USMC. Thus, identity crisis.

-B&S

 

[8654Maine]

This identity crisis seems to have been around forever.
USMC as a whole and it's relation to Recon is schizophrenic. That is a whole 'nother thread.
In the 80's we lost many good men due to this. Also our MOS, 0302 & 8654, was considered secondary, which really pissed off many bubbas, including me. A lot of folks jumped ship to other units in other branches to keep and stay at the tip.
I actually liked being a jack of all trades: blue, green, and black. It just sucked not getting the missions.
I hope the leadership realize that the tip of the spear is ever changing and if one can't adapt, one isn't relevant.

B&S, Welcome aboard. That was one fine answer that you gave above. I thought RickyRecons were supposed to be hard-core rocks? Were you at 1st when Copp was the CO?

 

[Board and Seize]

Yeah, talk about a love/hate.

Guys are still jumping ship these days. I know a few guys who have gone SF and NSW. I just hope the big Marine Corps figures stuff out before it's too late.

Thanks for the props. We still have our share of beach bod guys, but there is a push to better develop operational and strategic thinking among the team guys. If we hope to work with and hold our own with other SOF units, we need to have a similar way of thinking about the big picture (and not just how many miles I can ruck how many pounds...)

I was only briefly at 1st, mostly as a rope. The CO's name escapes me at the moment, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't Copp. I spent most of my time at 3rd.

-B&S