"Why I'm Skeptical of PTSD Claims... And You Should Be Too"
- Thread starter Marauder06
- Start date
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2009
- Messages
- 4,304
I do agree with the main points of this article that PTSD has become and excuse card with veterans, however, to say all veterans is a broad statement. I point to selected cases in the linked article. One example is the AP article which states "Sen. John Walsh of Montana said Wednesday his failure to attribute conclusions and verbatim passages lifted from other scholars' work in his thesis to earn a master's degree from the U.S. Army War College was an unintentional mistake caused in part by post-traumatic stress disorder" ( Here ). In closing I do agree with the main points of this article that PTSD has become an excuse card with veterans, however, to say all veterans is a broad statement.
HOLLiS
Verified Military
I am with Marine0311. Also the people doing the diagnosis needs to do their job. 20 years ago, PTSD was used by some criminals to try to wiggle out of the crime they did. With out checking back ground, it seemed true. The someone actually check their past. Some where never in the service, some where but never near any combat zones, areas, place which combat might have happened.
Also there are degrees of PTSD, just like any injury. People can paint a minor, a very minor injury look extremely serious.
A broken finger nail is not a amputation. Sort of a extreme example.
Also I think there is just a lot of misinformation about exactly what PTSD is for the average person. Diagnosis is not the veteran's job, it is for the clinicians to diagnosis and treat.
Also there are degrees of PTSD, just like any injury. People can paint a minor, a very minor injury look extremely serious.
A broken finger nail is not a amputation. Sort of a extreme example.
Also I think there is just a lot of misinformation about exactly what PTSD is for the average person. Diagnosis is not the veteran's job, it is for the clinicians to diagnosis and treat.
I also feel like there is social pressure from other veterans to claim PTSD as a type of badge of honor to verify combat status. Like my combat doesn't count because I don't have PTSD.
Reed
Reed
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2010
- Messages
- 2,186
I think there's some credence to the claims...
I think one thing that plays a role that is seldom mentioned is that everyone has a different capacity for coping, which seems to coincide with mental toughness. I don't have the stats, but there seems to be significantly less PTSD in SOF elements in comparison to the occurrence potentially traumatic events.
I didn't really feel the pressure/stress of a deployment until the last one, which coincided with a divorce. I could see some of my past deployments being particularly rough had they been compounded by additional stressors.
I think one thing that plays a role that is seldom mentioned is that everyone has a different capacity for coping, which seems to coincide with mental toughness. I don't have the stats, but there seems to be significantly less PTSD in SOF elements in comparison to the occurrence potentially traumatic events.
I didn't really feel the pressure/stress of a deployment until the last one, which coincided with a divorce. I could see some of my past deployments being particularly rough had they been compounded by additional stressors.
Brill
SOF Support
@Etype , I think the lower rates are more tied to stress inoculation and the confidence a SOF team conveys (especially to the attachments). After all the close quarters live fire, battle drills, and realistic medical training, I had no doubts we'd be ok but if something happened, the care would be top notch.
I don't think line units have the same sentiments going into a fight.
Oh, I used an iPad and tagged you.
I don't think line units have the same sentiments going into a fight.
Oh, I used an iPad and tagged you.
The best and worst thing about being SOF, and especially leaving, is the fact that both duration of time with the guys as well as exactly how tight knit the elements are, leaves a huge void whenever you move on.
Didn't help that it was a delayed timebomb upon departure from Regiment. Literally having SOP being shit that has ALREADY caused troops to die, and when multiple cases of "this is by far the stupidest thing we could do in this situation" are brought up the COC, getting told to STFU.... and having infantrymen looking up to me to be doing the right thing, keeping them alive, etc, when the unit's specifically planning operations that directly conflict against the active METL/SOP that the enemy's using overseas (since unlike everyone there, I could send an email and get a call within 72 hrs usually about WTF was up if it could be in the open, or otherwise "why is there a SFC/MSG/SGM on the phone in the S2 office asking for you" due to opsec) it drove me up the wall literally, then I spiderpigged on the ceiling.....
Realized I had a situation ongoing with me, realized I had no fucking ammunition/weapons/mission statement on how to move forward. Went for help. Got nothing other than chapter paperwork and then medically retired.
Guess what, I'm fucked up some days. Other days I'm pretty fine. Coping mechanisms etc. Simple fact is, in lieu of any valid attempt at reconciliation/rectification of what I had going on/solid explanation OF what was going on within the DOD? I got shucked the fuck out when I planned on busting my ass for 20+ years because I loved the job and accepted everything that came with it. So yeah, I take my wonderful buck sergeant retirement and the rest of the associated stuff.
Fuck their pills though. I'm better off dealing solo rather than with meds because if you have shit memory and forget them, then you're totally fucked and I'd argue shit memory + psych meds = majority of batshits we deal with today, across the board.
Way too much shit going on in the brain and way too many side effects on things, nevermind that 80% of the time it's "symptoms = pills" regardless if they're actually working. I had shit that was working fine, I was learning to cope, etc... go to Palo Alto, what do they do? Shift my meds all over the fucking place and just totally fuck up my kilter. Hell, here in NV one of the doctors perscribed some anti-smoking shit with a 6 month check-in if it was working... nothing beforehand... 3 days into taking it where I'm getting close to the proper amount of meds staying in my system? I get homicidal ideation like never before... and we're not talking "Dude cut me off when I'm driving politely and defensively, wish I was in the RSOV/Stryker GUNNER FRONT 20 METERS DIPSHIT IN THE SUBARU CYCLIC TILL ROUNDS COMPLETE FIRE" joking shit... real deal stuff I recognized that "seemed right to do" and made manson look like kindergarden level shit... flushed the shit instantly, informed the wife to secure the shit and watch me for the next week till I detox off this shit because it's fucking me up.... and went back that day to the doc and said that shit needs to be put as a lethal allergy because if I take it, someone's gonna die.
Then again, I also personally know it's an aggrivating factor but my actions are still my own when it comes down to it. I have to (and do) pay attention to things to ensure that I'm responding appropriately versus letting the little hate turbine that's always spinning help drive the wheels so I oversteer rather than stay in my lane, so to speak.
Didn't help that it was a delayed timebomb upon departure from Regiment. Literally having SOP being shit that has ALREADY caused troops to die, and when multiple cases of "this is by far the stupidest thing we could do in this situation" are brought up the COC, getting told to STFU.... and having infantrymen looking up to me to be doing the right thing, keeping them alive, etc, when the unit's specifically planning operations that directly conflict against the active METL/SOP that the enemy's using overseas (since unlike everyone there, I could send an email and get a call within 72 hrs usually about WTF was up if it could be in the open, or otherwise "why is there a SFC/MSG/SGM on the phone in the S2 office asking for you" due to opsec) it drove me up the wall literally, then I spiderpigged on the ceiling.....
Realized I had a situation ongoing with me, realized I had no fucking ammunition/weapons/mission statement on how to move forward. Went for help. Got nothing other than chapter paperwork and then medically retired.
Guess what, I'm fucked up some days. Other days I'm pretty fine. Coping mechanisms etc. Simple fact is, in lieu of any valid attempt at reconciliation/rectification of what I had going on/solid explanation OF what was going on within the DOD? I got shucked the fuck out when I planned on busting my ass for 20+ years because I loved the job and accepted everything that came with it. So yeah, I take my wonderful buck sergeant retirement and the rest of the associated stuff.
Fuck their pills though. I'm better off dealing solo rather than with meds because if you have shit memory and forget them, then you're totally fucked and I'd argue shit memory + psych meds = majority of batshits we deal with today, across the board.
Way too much shit going on in the brain and way too many side effects on things, nevermind that 80% of the time it's "symptoms = pills" regardless if they're actually working. I had shit that was working fine, I was learning to cope, etc... go to Palo Alto, what do they do? Shift my meds all over the fucking place and just totally fuck up my kilter. Hell, here in NV one of the doctors perscribed some anti-smoking shit with a 6 month check-in if it was working... nothing beforehand... 3 days into taking it where I'm getting close to the proper amount of meds staying in my system? I get homicidal ideation like never before... and we're not talking "Dude cut me off when I'm driving politely and defensively, wish I was in the RSOV/Stryker GUNNER FRONT 20 METERS DIPSHIT IN THE SUBARU CYCLIC TILL ROUNDS COMPLETE FIRE" joking shit... real deal stuff I recognized that "seemed right to do" and made manson look like kindergarden level shit... flushed the shit instantly, informed the wife to secure the shit and watch me for the next week till I detox off this shit because it's fucking me up.... and went back that day to the doc and said that shit needs to be put as a lethal allergy because if I take it, someone's gonna die.
Then again, I also personally know it's an aggrivating factor but my actions are still my own when it comes down to it. I have to (and do) pay attention to things to ensure that I'm responding appropriately versus letting the little hate turbine that's always spinning help drive the wheels so I oversteer rather than stay in my lane, so to speak.
HOLLiS
Verified Military
I really agree with your sentiments. BUT.. <-- see big Butt I disagree with not filing a claim. We did sign a contract. It is not about how tough we are or any thing else. File that claim. WHY... Because the VA does not serve you, it serves the VA. Later, when you need it, that date is important.
I really wish I could explain myself better, You are screwing yourself. It is not about recognition anything. It is about what ever happens in the future. Your family, your health, etc.
For over 20 years I was also silent too, well be silent to everyone except the VA.
Ah and here is our dilemma. If I file for PTSD with the VA and it goes on my record I have offically screwed myself for finding work. I have already been denied a high end government security job because I was stupid and told them I see a private psychologist about some reintegration stuff. They dug deeeep into it. Psychologist ran a great defense. They got wind of a tiny note on her pad that said, possible mild ptsd. Boom, tossed out of that candidate pool before I knew what happened.
Screwed if you file. Screwed if you don't.
I've been there for my brothers in arms who have / are dealing with PTSD issues. I've been told by them, that just being there listening, not judging, not making suggestions on things to do, but really listening and asking pertinent (and impertinent/sarcastic) questions, or just going out and doing shit that's not part of the routine, just having time to be with a brother who's got your back makes a huge difference.
The brain is an organ that houses another organ we really don't fucking understand, the mind. If palliative care works for other physical injuries, why are people so afraid to do the same with injuries to the mind? If a person has strained muscles, massage works; spinal mis-alignment, chiropractic/manipulative care; palliative care for brothers (generic term) with PTSD is as effective as that for physical injury, from my experience. Long phone calls, hikes, a day at the lake, a good meal, a cold beer and a place that feels safe because your buddy trusts you.
I believe PTSD is real, and has degrees, and is like cancer... it can be brought on by many things in your environment, but like back injuries, can be used by some to game the system and the feelings/sympathy of others.
No, I did not want to get pissed off by the article, so I did not read it, I read the comments of my brothers and responded to them, like I would if a call came through and the person on the other end said "I just need to talk, got some time?" For my brothers, that's the only stupid question there is, if you need me, I'm there.
The brain is an organ that houses another organ we really don't fucking understand, the mind. If palliative care works for other physical injuries, why are people so afraid to do the same with injuries to the mind? If a person has strained muscles, massage works; spinal mis-alignment, chiropractic/manipulative care; palliative care for brothers (generic term) with PTSD is as effective as that for physical injury, from my experience. Long phone calls, hikes, a day at the lake, a good meal, a cold beer and a place that feels safe because your buddy trusts you.
I believe PTSD is real, and has degrees, and is like cancer... it can be brought on by many things in your environment, but like back injuries, can be used by some to game the system and the feelings/sympathy of others.
No, I did not want to get pissed off by the article, so I did not read it, I read the comments of my brothers and responded to them, like I would if a call came through and the person on the other end said "I just need to talk, got some time?" For my brothers, that's the only stupid question there is, if you need me, I'm there.
Last edited:
RetPara
SOF Support
I think that the main point of the article is that not all VA/Mil PTSD diagnosis are valid or are at the same level.
I have not seen anything that PTSD is graduated in degree. Also RangerPsych did the smart thing flushing the drugs (well not flushing; water treatment plants are not equipped to deal with pharmaceuticals). Too often in Mental Health there is not a sufficient review of medication interaction. Also individuals will react differently to different individual meds and combination of meds. I found that the hard way last year. It's up to the Veteran to be aware of the side effects of individual and combinations of meds. It does not have to be trying to decipher the literature, there are good web pages that break it down. Also there should be VA pharmacists that can look at ALL the meds your taking and review them for issues. If the meds your taking are having a negative impact you have to speak up.
One thing that has not been brought up is that Psychiatry is primarily pharmacology based. When you get into other disciplines like Psychology; then you get away from Happy Pills. There are few VA's, if any, that will assign a cross discipline team for individuals for mental health care.
I have not seen anything that PTSD is graduated in degree. Also RangerPsych did the smart thing flushing the drugs (well not flushing; water treatment plants are not equipped to deal with pharmaceuticals). Too often in Mental Health there is not a sufficient review of medication interaction. Also individuals will react differently to different individual meds and combination of meds. I found that the hard way last year. It's up to the Veteran to be aware of the side effects of individual and combinations of meds. It does not have to be trying to decipher the literature, there are good web pages that break it down. Also there should be VA pharmacists that can look at ALL the meds your taking and review them for issues. If the meds your taking are having a negative impact you have to speak up.
One thing that has not been brought up is that Psychiatry is primarily pharmacology based. When you get into other disciplines like Psychology; then you get away from Happy Pills. There are few VA's, if any, that will assign a cross discipline team for individuals for mental health care.
Here's the thing, you're in the Fire service now. Dealing with the stuff that you do on a regular basis (pulling a 6 y/o corpse out of a house set on fire because of drunk grandma who survived and while in the incipient stages nobody made sure he was out, as a prime example) WILL chew you up... but good departments also have different things in place to help take care of you. CISD's (Critical Incident Stress Debriefing) for example. That call sticks out in my mind as a total soup sandwich that a large portion of the department was fucked up about up until we did the CISD and had the dispatcher, initial crew/command on-scene, etc etc all there... going over the call was hard, hard for a lot of us, but it also opened eyes as to the reality of the entire situation and the simple fact that by the time the neighbors called 911, that kid was already gone and even having the Enterprise to do a transporter beam-in of the entire department with full crews for all plus spare manpower, wouldn't have changed the scene.
I can say honestly that diagnosed or undiagnosed, you really shouldn't be in jobs out the gate where they're doing psych evals. I've thought about giving it a shot for a couple departments, but between the comraderie and mission? Fire service has everything else beat. Plus our rigs look better anyway and people are 98% of the time happy to see us, unlike the blue canaries. ;)
I have a 5 y/o and even knowing this, they issued that crap to me in non-child-resistant containers. I even asked when I called prior to meeting with my doctor (I called as soon as I was off the road and at home) and they didn't have any disposal capabilities at the clinic I "report" to. Then again, I'm in bumfuck and my only choice if I even attended any psych-related treatment at this point is either driving 70+ miles, or trying to use the VA champ or whatever the hell it is to get local treatment... and everything local? Focused on substance abuse. The only substance abuse I do is occassionally drinking my beer slow enough that it gets warm, since I'm drinking just because it tastes good and in celebration of little things in life. When I'm "in the shit" in my head? I specifically refuse to drink. I'll take the various demons on head on and sober, thank you.
The only time I have seen a cross discipline team/been "engaged" by one is during voluntary stays at programs. Even then, the shit really didn't help much/at all.
Last edited:
Addendum: I also just about had it out with the C&P Examiner the last time I had to check in for that shit... The oxygen thief I had to interact with tried to say that neither of my inpatient stays were voluntary... erm, woman, I got asked if I wanted to go, I boarded the plane of my own accord, I got in the taxi on my own accord, and I signed in under my own volition with the ability to leave at any time should I so desire.... both times. The involuntary side? Other side of the hospital with the thorazine shufflers, 1:2 staff to patient ratio and getting buzzed in-out of the secured facility... my side? open doors, team of two nurses on duty for the 30 some odd staying there at the time, and a sign in-out roster if you wanted to go out for fresh air, PT, gas station for munchies, or weekend passes either individually or as a buddy team.
I got more out of a 16 hour pass with some people from here who was awesome enough to take me in, than from the entire program duration I endured.
I got more out of a 16 hour pass with some people from here who was awesome enough to take me in, than from the entire program duration I endured.
You'll also have assholes like the Air Guard guy I worked with. He practically sent out a flyer stating his deployment's end state was a PTSD diagnosis so he could score 10 points of veterans preference. This will remain a problem until there's some type of brain scan or blood test or something beyond the words coming from a patient's mouth. Those dirtbags will clog the system and ride high on their glory and valor and injuries....and there's damn little we can do to stop them. One off's maybe, but not the masses.
Don't get put off by the overly-sensationalistic title, the article itself is actually quite nuanced. I don't think you'd get pissed off if you read it.
Everyone seems to push the PTSD angle, I've had two exams with #3 in a week.
They need to do a better job with the initial diagnosis, but saying someone is sick makes everyone happy.
HOLLiS
Verified Military
Brill
SOF Support
Interesting article but the picture with the guy's weapon control just pisses me off.
Veterans' PTSD may recur down the line | Fox News
Veterans' PTSD may recur down the line | Fox News
I agree with both Etype and Ranger Psych on their comments. I do think there are a lot of shammers out there, on both sides. A ton of people making claims, without any justification IMO. However, there are people who are walking wrecking balls screwing up everything in their life, who refuse to acknowledge that they have a problem or seek help. I never thought I had PTSD, argued with a psychologist to the point I was about to choke the shit of him. Storming out offices like a fucking child, while I'm sure several people were shaking their heads at my stupidity.
I had a megalithic melt down of epic proportions, just about ruined everything around me, got pretty close to suck starting a pistol, and ended up on some psych meds temporarily, and had to be take a long hard look at myself and my bullshit.
You might not think you have it, you may refuse to admit you have an issue, but you had better get properly screened and except the diagnosis and stay ahead of it. Don't be a dummy like me...
As for the VA and or the Military, they need to get better at identifying and diagnosis, and a lot better in proactive treatments, especially in the areas of chemical imbalances and how they affect people with PTSD. As for the liars and or shammers, when they are identified they need to be prosecuted for fraud and false claims.
My$.02
I had a megalithic melt down of epic proportions, just about ruined everything around me, got pretty close to suck starting a pistol, and ended up on some psych meds temporarily, and had to be take a long hard look at myself and my bullshit.
You might not think you have it, you may refuse to admit you have an issue, but you had better get properly screened and except the diagnosis and stay ahead of it. Don't be a dummy like me...
As for the VA and or the Military, they need to get better at identifying and diagnosis, and a lot better in proactive treatments, especially in the areas of chemical imbalances and how they affect people with PTSD. As for the liars and or shammers, when they are identified they need to be prosecuted for fraud and false claims.
My$.02
Similar threads
