A Couple Questions (Rucking & more)

[Etype]

... lunges 1/4 mile at a time...

Is there a lunge test in the Marines???

Given that the body has a finite ability to recover and you have a finite amount of time to train, I wouldn't waste any time or recovery on lunging- unless you wanted to be able to challenge your friends to a lunge-off.

As for running with a ruck, I'd say the overwhelming majority who say it's dumb have never made it through a selection process.

 

[TLDR20]

Is there a lunge test in the Marines???

Given that the body has a finite ability to recover and you have a finite amount of time to train, I wouldn't waste any time or recovery on lunging- unless you wanted to be able to challenge your friends to a lunge-off.

As for running with a ruck, I'd say the overwhelming majority who say it's dumb have never made it through a selection process.

Yeah I ran my balls off in SFAS. It may not be the best idea to train that way regularly, but you will have to do it during any tough training.

 

[LeftFootRightFoot]

I mean, it's medically proven running with a ruck does a ridiculous amount of damage to your knees and your back. I'm absolutely going to do it anyway just because I have to, but I figure it's better to be knowledgeable and conscious of the issue. As for the lunges, I do them to help build leg strength because I don't have access to a gym currently. Also they give me some good torque for climbing hills and are a good way to stretch my legs with long lunges after running.

 

[Etype]

I mean, it's medically proven running with a ruck does a ridiculous amount of damage to your knees and your back. I'm absolutely going to do it anyway just because I have to, but I figure it's better to be knowledgeable and conscious of the issue. As for the lunges, I do them to help build leg strength because I don't have access to a gym currently. Also they give me some good torque for climbing hills and are a good way to stretch my legs with long lunges after running.

Is it medically proven??? Show me.

What's proven to do damage to your body is asking things of it that it hasn't properly adapted to doing.

If you never run with a ruck under the supposition that you're going to train walking, then run when you get to selection- you're in for a lot of pain and maybe some injuries.

If you start running with a ruck a little at a time now, you'll give your white tissue (which is the slowest to adapt) time to get used to the load.

Look at all the crazy things the body can do across the broad spectrum of sports- it can adapt to loads, distances, elevation...
To think that a ruck is some insurmountable physical challenge is ridiculous.

 

[LeftFootRightFoot]

Absolutely. Humans actually have a lot of ortho problems from walking upright to include spinal and knee issues especially. The spinal column and the knee aren't well engineered to deal with compression forces as well as other joints such as the hips and ankles. That's why you hear people with lower back and knee problems being so common, but hip and ankle issues aren't as common until old age starts to set in.

The knee relies heavily on the cartilage to function smoothly, but the knee likes to tear it up, especially when impact is added. This is also the reason paratroopers get messed up so badly even from jumping properly. Obviously doing an actual run versus a trot with a ruck on creates massive impact if you're landing on one foot at a time. Landing on one foot doubles the force and the added acceleration from switching from foot to foot multiplies the force delivered to the knee. The white tissue as you call it, or articular cartilage, does not regenerate like muscle or bone and can not be trained or condition. More so it is simply "used up" as even normal wear and tear can leave unlucky people with bad knees without even sustaining an injury. Surgery is often the only means to correct these issues so it's a bit of risky business throwing your knees out the window.

Now do I run? Yes, I've been trotting and working on my technique so far without any knee pain actually. I'll bend my knee backwards if that's what I have to do to get it done, but there's still good sense in being weary of injury.

 

[DocIllinois]

Some modifiable risk factors associated with a greater risk of developing knee arthritis:

- Occupations involving repetitive knee bending or squatting
- Joint injuries
- Infection
- Overweight

 

[TLDR20]

Absolutely. Humans actually have a lot of ortho problems from walking upright to include spinal and knee issues especially. The spinal column and the knee aren't well engineered to deal with compression forces as well as other joints such as the hips and ankles. That's why you hear people with lower back and knee problems being so common, but hip and ankle issues aren't as common until old age starts to set in.

The knee relies heavily on the cartilage to function smoothly, but the knee likes to tear it up, especially when impact is added. This is also the reason paratroopers get messed up so badly even from jumping properly. Obviously doing an actual run versus a trot with a ruck on creates massive impact if you're landing on one foot at a time. Landing on one foot doubles the force and the added acceleration from switching from foot to foot multiplies the force delivered to the knee. The white tissue as you call it, or articular cartilage, does not regenerate like muscle or bone and can not be trained or condition. More so it is simply "used up" as even normal wear and tear can leave unlucky people with bad knees without even sustaining an injury. Surgery is often the only means to correct these issues so it's a bit of risky business throwing your knees out the window.

Now do I run? Yes, I've been trotting and working on my technique so far without any knee pain actually. I'll bend my knee backwards if that's what I have to do to get it done, but there's still good sense in being weary of injury.

I look forward to you telling your cadre the above if/when you get to SWC.

 

[LeftFootRightFoot]

I'm not really sure what all the hostility is for guys. I'm simply here to improve and get stronger so I don't exactly understand where the shift in the conversation came from. I was asked to defend my statements, so I did. I'd prefer it if things about my personality, behavior, or character weren't insinuated based on that considering a lot of things about me seem to be implied from these statements and that we get back to the discussion. I'm not really interested in discussing if ruck running is bad for knees further simply because one, I don't feel anyone is interested in an honest discussion and two, there's a lot of research out there that is already available. If someone genuinely wants to learn more I have no problem in helping them and hell, I can even get you behind some pay walls if you want to get serious, but again I came here for professional device on developing myself, not for "haha go tell your cadre that ruck running is bad for your knees." Thanks again and let's keep the discussion focused, gents.

 

[Marine0311]

I'm not really sure what all the hostility is for guys. I'm simply here to improve and get stronger so I don't exactly understand where the shift in the conversation came from. I was asked to defend my statements, so I did. I'd prefer it if things about my personality, behavior, or character weren't insinuated based on that considering a lot of things about me seem to be implied from these statements and that we get back to the discussion. I'm not really interested in discussing if ruck running is bad for knees further simply because one, I don't feel anyone is interested in an honest discussion and two, there's a lot of research out there that is already available. If someone genuinely wants to learn more I have no problem in helping them and hell, I can even get you behind some pay walls if you want to get serious, but again I came here for professional device on developing myself, not for "haha go tell your cadre that ruck running is bad for your knees." Thanks again and let's keep the discussion focused, gents.

You're going about it the wrong way. You came here to ask a community of warriors who have rucked all over God's Green Earth about rucking and its related subjects. You were then given advice and are arguing back and forth. You also made a statement about medical research, if so cite (link) your sources.

I can tell you I rucked all over, over different terrain (mostly desert) and I had little if any problems because I took care of myself. Sure I was sore and sometimes borderline hurt but again I also stretched, lifted weights, ran and otherwise took as best care of my body as I could.


Source: Me; A (former) Marine grunt who walked with a ruck for 4 years.

 

[AWP]

I'm going to step in as a staff member here and try to clarify this discussion before it goes nuclear.

Are we discussing the concept that given proper conditioning and recovery there's no possibility of repetitive movement and impact causing injury or given the former you delay the onset of problems until much later in life?

 

[LeftFootRightFoot]

I never argued about being given advice even once, so I don't appreciate that sentiment. All I ever did was explain that your cartilage doesn't regenerate and give a brief lesson on it that apparently everyone took as a personal insult. As for providing links to my sources, that is a fair, but perhaps that standard should be applied to everyone, not just me. The main reason I haven't is because like I said, one I don't think anyone cares, and two it's not hard to look up yourself at all.

Now is what I would like are some sources stating articular cartilage can be conditioned and that it regenerates on its own because through all my research all I've found is the opposite to be true; but is what I find odd is no one is checking their fellow vetted guys, but it's all too easy to jump down my throat. I really didn't expect such an unprofessional break down simply from me asking advice and explaining something. Again to repeat myself and make my viewpoints clear, I never said I don't run, I never said I'm not going to run, and I never said someone shouldn't run at a selection course. I spend over half my rucks running and I'm working on my endurance to run longer. All I said was it is bad for your joints and puts you at a higher risk for injury. If someone wants to argue that point then I don't know what to tell you that 5 minutes of Googling or Google Scholar couldn't.

 

[AWP]

@LeftFootRightFoot a piece of advice, and this has nothing to do with being on staff, but you've made your point about the criticism. Continuing to beat that horse makes you look like you're whining. It is kind of like that scene in A Few Good Men: "I strenuously object" and the discussion that follows.

As a staff member stuff like this won't fly, so don't go there.

Thanks again and let's keep the discussion focused, gents.

 

[LeftFootRightFoot]

Looking back, I do agree. Sometimes it is difficult to not defend yourself, especially when it's for a viewpoint you don't necessarily have, but you're absolutely right.

As for your last piece, what wording do you recommend because this has all gotten a bit...silly to say the least I think we can agree. I'd much rather get a good amalgam of advice from everyone in here not only for myself, but for others who will be reading this later on rather than what this most recent page displays.

 

[LeftFootRightFoot]

@Freefalling I can't find where to edit, but just to clarify as it is often hard to tell with text, but I wasn't being sarcastic with that statement if that's what you thought.

 

[AWP]

As for your last piece, what wording do you recommend because this has all gotten a bit...silly to say the least I think we can agree. I'd much rather get a good amalgam of advice from everyone in here not only for myself, but for others who will be reading this later on rather than what this most recent page displays.

I recommend no wording at all. The staff exists to keep discussions on track. Even if it drifting, members don't direct or suggest to other members how to structure a thread.

As for editing, only vetted or verified members can do that. It keeps people from blowing in, doing something stupid, and then playing the "I didn't write that" or trying to "obliterate any traces of their behavior" games. That's another reason we tend to not act upon account deletion requests.

 

[LeftFootRightFoot]

That makes a lot more sense. Every time I've gone in to add to a post or fix a missed typo I've felt like Mugatu looking for that damn button.

 

[x SF med]

As for your last piece, what wording do you recommend because this has all gotten a bit...silly to say the least I think we can agree.

LFRF.... you are not a staff member, not a senior member, but a new member with 19 maybe 20 posts.... and trying to do the job of a moderator or admin with your post... Let the mods/admins take care of policing the board, even the most senior non-staff members shy away from the kinds of posts that brought you censure from an admin. Common sense and knowledge of the hierarchy of the site will serve you well.

I can't find where to edit,

You are not senior enough to edit your own posts, it forces the newest members to pay close attention to their content.

 

[Etype]

As for the paratroopers having issues from jumping...

You're not hitting the ground much, if any, harder than jumping out of the back of a pick up.

I'd argue that most of the knee/back issues in the airborne community come from other activities (rucking, running).

I'll also add a this- I saw a huge number of older guys during my time in the 82nd with white tissue issues who smoked. There's a link that modern science has DEFINITELY established.

 

[Derdang]

Ha what has happened

 

[LeftFootRightFoot]

Ha what has happened

Everything. Everything has happened.

Being serious though, I managed to shave off another minute from my 5k using a strict minute on/minute off like you recommended vs. my previous doing it by feel. I used a timer app I had for boxing workouts that you can set to beep at an interval and it works in conjunction with my music so it's convenient. I figure I'll use it to help push me now and slowly cut time off the walking timer so by time I get to A&S my natural on/off tempo will be a respectable pace.