Army Chief of Staff: "Prevent, Shape, Win."

[pardus]

I assumed the US cross-trained with the Brits/AUS/NZ and took on TTP's that fitted into their trainnig doctrine..

People do cross train but you must understand that a lot of "training" here is rudimentary. "Watch me do this once. Got it? Now you are an instructor" I shit you not!

 

[Crusader74]

People do cross train but you must understand that a lot of "training" here is rudimentary. "Watch me do this once. Got it? Now you are an instructor" I shit you not!

 

[pardus]

Yup, I was shocked beyond belief when I first encountered it.

In the Kiwi Army, map folding was a formal, 40 minute lesson, as was left turn, right turn, etc... etc...

Every Kiwi JNCO was a drill/general instructor.

I will say though that my medical training has been very good. Caveat, I have not had Med training from another Army.

 

[DA SWO]

What hasn't been said is the Conventional Guys/Gals can do a FID mission because an ODA laid the groundwork. That's why SF is so valuable.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

CF will always be involved in FID, as they always have been. My only experience with FID was the training, leading and advising of the ING during 2004-2005 and some work I did with the Joint Military Skills Center. From that experience I found several aspects that hindered my ability to be effective in training foreign soldiers (language, culture awareness and knowledge, and most of all patients). These are all aspects that are very important for teaching soldiers from other nations and are skills a lot of the NCO’s in the CF do not possess. Another big issue is being skillful in teaching, which requires expert knowledge and the ability to transfer that knowledge to other effectively. Again this is something a majority of the CF NCO’s are lacking, IMHO.

However, SF focuses on the skills sets, and I believe that makes them more qualified and effective in the FID mission. That doesn’t mean that CF should not be involved in FID or that they cannot conduct FID missions. It means that if CF is going to continue in conducting FID, then they should be more selective of the personnel they use and they should develop those individuals in the skills needed to be successful in that mission. Does that mean they need to go through SFAS and the Q course to do FID? No, but I think SF could really be helpful in developing a course for CF soldiers who will be conducting FID.

Just my $0.02

 

[pardus]

How about just training all CF to a higher standard like the commonwealth does?

I don't want to hear "well the US Army is too big to do that." Because that's a bullshit cop out.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

How about just training all CF to a higher standard like the commonwealth does?

I don't want to hear "well the US Army is too big to do that." Because that's a bullshit cop out.

I agree that the Army should be trained to higher standard, and I also agree with copout bullshit. I also know that there are very highly trained soldiers throughout the Army and who do take their job seriously. Remember that just because it may suck where you are right now, it doesn’t suck everywhere. Also I would not say that the “commonwealth” soldiers are better trained then ours, our soldiers are very well trained, it could be better and should be better, but even so, we do have a well trained Army (even in our shitty ranks within the Army).

 

[pardus]

I know there are very well trained soldiers in the US Military, I'm not including SOCOM in my comments, they are top notch.
My unit/s and component are irrelevant to the point i'm making. This has nothing to do with "sucking" I'm simply stating a fact. I've trained under AD instructors several times, I see orders and doctrine from big Army. This is not a "Guard sucks" thing, this is a statement on the US Army as a whole.

How do you know Commonwealth Soldiers are not better trained?

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

How do you know Commonwealth Soldiers are not better trained?

Because I have worked with them (Aussies, Brits and Scotts), a few of their TTP's and lingo is different, but pretty well the same skill levels from what I could tell.

 

[pardus]

Fair enough, good to hear. However my point still stands, training standards are vastly different.

 

[moobob]

From talking to a Kiwi about the training their infantrymen receive... it sounds like a much better way of doing things. This is across the board.

I wouldn't say that saying we couldn't train to their standard is a copout. New Zealand's entire army is the equivalent of two or less U.S. Army brigades.

However, we can do a lot better....

 

[TLDR20]

There are things ODAs due that CF forces can't in relation to FID. I can't say
More than that, however I can say that CF is not as prepared as they think they are for that task.

 

[Brill]

How about just training all CF to a higher standard like the commonwealth does?

No f'ing way. This is not a dig but a shared reality statement: Joe cannot handle the "big boy rules" of SOF. When is the last time there was a report of a SOF element that went on a killing spree and covering it up? Killing one of their own and claiming he was attacked because he was a minority? Selling secrets or passing them to an asshole just to make a statement?

Joe is just a different animal with different expecations and norms (I'm not talking about wearing non-issue kit, non-standard uniforms, long hair, etc.). To drive the point home, how many CF guys work with a SOF unit and desire to actually join SOF? Conversely, how many SOF guys DESIRE to return to CF units?


From FM 34-52 ch 9:

FOREIGN INTERNAL DEFENSE

FID encompasses those actions taken by civilian and military agencies of one government in any program taken by another government to preclude or defeat insurgency. Insurgencies cannot be overcome by military measures alone but by military support to national programs.
US Army forces operate in concert with other services, both US and host nation and with other US Government agencies. Operations are conducted in support of plans developed by the host nation and the US Government.
US forces involved in FID must have an appreciation of the culture into which they are employed and should be selected, educated, and prepared to ensure that US involvement and goals are understood and complied with. Language capabilities are important and must be developed to the maximum extent possible. Units should be prepared for the FID mission prior to deployment and arrive in the host country established as an effective, cohesive group, prepared to begin operations immediately.
US Army forces can assume various relationships with the host nation's military forces in FID operations. They can serve as advisors or instructors at all levels. Special forces units are specifically trained for this mission. Combat support of CSS units may augment the host nation's efforts and serve to prepare the battlefield for US combat forces, if required. US forces must assume an unobtrusive support role to maintain credibility of the host government.
The manner in which US combat forces are employed will vary with the situation. Because of their familiarity with local communities and population, it is generally better to use indigenous military assets in more populated areas and to employ US combat assets in remote areas.
When US Army combat troops are required for FID operations, planning for their withdrawal begins at the time of deployment. The withdrawal of Army units depends on the capability of the host nation forces to regain and maintain control.

Sure sounds like a SF mission to me.

CF will always be involved in FID, as they always have been.

Was CF involved in LATAM like SF was in the 80's? How many CF FID missions went to Central Asia? When did CF deploy to Georgia to train the Georgian army before the Russian invasion? I've spent alot of time at various embassies all over the world and the Office of Defense Cooperation always worked with SOF elements and I never knew of any deployments to train HN forces by CF.

FID is part of UW and CF doesn't do UW well.

Back to the thread, "Prevent, Shape, Win" is soft pansy-like PC bullshi'ite that just smells of Cold War doctrine (perhaps intended for the Chinese Army leadership). The "prevent" statement is total garbage in that if the Army is not even able to convince a ragtag bunch of boy fuckers that it is unwise to engage, then who the hell can we convince? The Nepalese Army? Gimme a break. Prevention is scaring the shit out of your enemy by snatching their leaders in the middle of the night, killing those that cannot be grabbed, and striking fear into their hearts so they are absolutely afraid to even leave their safe havens because they KNOW they will die.

Shape...been over that

Win? Give me a freakin' break. This current admin is not interested in winning any wars...especially against Islamic nations. <--yes, I f'ing said that! His campaign pleadge was to pull-out of Iraq and we are scheduled to draw down in AF. Yep, victory strategy, for world powers like France.

 

[surgicalcric]

There are things ODAs due that CF forces can't in relation to FID. I can't say
More than that, however I can say that CF is not as prepared as they think they are for that task.

I could swear I heard someone say that before... lol

 

[reed11b]

How about just training all CF to a higher standard like the commonwealth does?

I don't want to hear "well the US Army is too big to do that." Because that's a bullshit cop out.

One of the challenges that the big Army has is that it is constantly rotating personnel between units and trains individuals not units. If the Army switched to a rotational readiness plan and reduced PCS moves to a minimum they could train beyond the basics and train units up to standard. Army personel command is broken, and until that gets fixed, training and readiness will always be handicapped.

 

[pardus]

I just want to put it out there that I don't think the NZ Army is perfect by any means. I could write a book about fucked up shit there.
I was just talking about one issue that Ive had personal experience with.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

From FM 34-52 ch 9:



Sure sounds like a SF mission to me.

Did you even read that? Sounds a lot like CF support structures, combat forces and trainers/advisors? I did not see where it stated that SF only conducts FID?


Was CF involved in LATAM like SF was in the 80's?

CF has been working in LATAM before SF was even a theroy, much less operating in LATAM. You are twisting this into something of a this vs that, and that is not where I was going. I clearly stated that SF is better at FID and should be training CF how to conduct FID better.

How many CF FID missions went to Central Asia?

I have no idea if any CF worked in Central Asia, what’s the point?

When did CF deploy to Georgia to train the Georgian army before the Russian invasion?

It was my understanding there was several CF NCO’s and Officers who rotated in an out of Georgia prior to Russia’s invasion. I have met quite a few SrNCO’s who were stationed in FT Hood who were sent over to Georgia and worked as trainers on some of the weapon systems that were sold/given to Georgia.

I've spent alot of time at various embassies all over the world and the Office of Defense Cooperation always worked with SOF elements and I never knew of any deployments to train HN forces by CF.

Interesting, so you have not heard of the any CF that has been conducting FID in South America, Africa, Europe, etc, etc? I have and I have never worked in a Embassy…

FID is part of UW and CF doesn't do UW well.

It was my understanding (and I don’t know much about it at all) that UW was the building of an insurgency force to over throw an oppressive government, not to build a government’s strength and security? How is FID a part of UW? I mean I get that FID is one of SF’s core missions, just like UW. But I don’t see how the two are part of each other, more so the exact opposite, at least I would have thought.

Back to the thread, "Prevent, Shape, Win" is soft pansy-like PC bullshi'ite that just smells of Cold War doctrine (perhaps intended for the Chinese Army leadership). The "prevent" statement is total garbage in that if the Army is not even able to convince a ragtag bunch of boy fuckers that it is unwise to engage, then who the hell can we convince? The Nepalese Army? Gimme a break. Prevention is scaring the shit out of your enemy by snatching their leaders in the middle of the night, killing those that cannot be grabbed, and striking fear into their hearts so they are absolutely afraid to even leave their safe havens because they KNOW they will die.

Shape...been over that

Win? Give me a freakin' break. This current admin is not interested in winning any wars...especially against Islamic nations. <--yes, I f'ing said that! His campaign pleadge was to pull-out of Iraq and we are scheduled to draw down in AF. Yep, victory strategy, for world powers like France.

I pretty well agree with you on the aspects on Pvt Joe Snuffy not being a good fit for FID, and for the most part most CF who have been involved in FID have been SrNCO’s and Officers. I still think that a program could be created (again maybe by SF) to assist in preparing those SrNCO/Officers to conduct FID more effectively and more in line with how SF is doing it.

And totally agree on the last portion of your post regarding the “PC bullshit” etc…

 

[policemedic]

I know there are very well trained soldiers in the US Military, I'm not including SOCOM in my comments, they are top notch.
My unit/s and component are irrelevant to the point i'm making. This has nothing to do with "sucking" I'm simply stating a fact. I've trained under AD instructors several times, I see orders and doctrine from big Army. This is not a "Guard sucks" thing, this is a statement on the US Army as a whole.

No argument re: USSOCOM.

But having served RA/USAR/ARNG, I can say there is a world of difference between USAR/ARNG and the regular Army in terms of training and skill level. I do admit there are particular CMFs where RC/NG guys are better...MPs who are civilian cops and medics who are civilian paramedics or flight medics (proven better, by the way) are better than many AD guys. Generally speaking though, AD guys are much more skilled than their RC counterparts by virtue of being full-time and I think it is possible to apply what is generally known as 'rater bias' when you try to extrapolate NG/RC experience to the AD force.

I find it interesting you give high marks to the 68W course at Fort Sam. I never took it-11B + NREMT-P equalled 68W for me-but I had to retrain every medic in my battalion in many areas. I truly wonder what other nations do in terms of combat medic training.

How do you know Commonwealth Soldiers are not better trained?

However, I think you are uniquely qualified to judge the relative skill levels of the soldiers you've served with in various armies. I completely respect your opinion in this area and appreciate your insights. I think we're lucky you're willing to share the breadth of your experience.

 

[moobob]

I pretty well agree with you on the aspects on Pvt Joe Snuffy not being a good fit for FID, and for the most part most CF who have been involved in FID have been SrNCO’s and Officers. I still think that a program could be created (again maybe by SF) to assist in preparing those SrNCO/Officers to conduct FID more effectively and more in line with how SF is doing it.

And totally agree on the last portion of your post regarding the “PC bullshit” etc…

JAB, refer back to when surgicalcric said "CF, when tasked, deploys to train HN personnel, period. SF, when tasked, deploys to do X through FID. There are more differences than similarities in the two but we cannot delve into them without violating aspects of mission security."

If you don't know what he is referring to, you don't need to know. However, saying CF can perform the "SF mission" is laughable. This mindset is due to ignorance (and some professional jealousy) on behalf of senior CF personnel.

Yes, CF can train foreign troops. Teaching BRM and small unit tactics to indig troops can be challenging, but most competent soldiers can do it. There are other things at work, and getting into the mindset that big Army can do what SF can do is the wrong way to think. Unfortunately, very few people in the CF food chain need to be privy to why that is, so this mindset continues to permeate.

 

[surgicalcric]

...It was my understanding (and I don’t know much about it at all) that UW was the building of an insurgency force to over throw an oppressive government, not to build a government’s strength and security? How is FID a part of UW? I mean I get that FID is one of SF’s core missions, just like UW. But I don’t see how the two are part of each other, more so the exact opposite, at least I would have thought.

J:

Let me see if I can clear some of the mud from the water here without getting too deep into the definitions of each.

UW is about setting the stage for and recruiting, training, assisting and advising indigenous personnel to overthrow a government or occupying power through an insurgency. Whereas FID, in part, is conducted to assist in preventing an insurgency from overthrowing a government and to improve that government's ability to defend themselves again outside enemies as well.

If you look at them in this light you will see that UW and FID are opposite sides of the same COIN (counterinsurgency). You must understand and be capable of applying each to be truly effective at the other. This is one of the reasons we say there is more to FID than simply training LBG (lil brown guys) to complete a task to a standard given a set of conditions. SF does not like Big Army's definition of FID for this reason.

Hope this helps.

Crip