"Fit, Not Fat:" making the US military's standards high again

[Cookie_]

Ranger School is getting a new PT test, which is a modified version of the E3B Physical Ftiness Assessment.

Comparison of the RS and [E3B] tests:

ACU and boots (w/ helmet+plate carrier)

800m run [1 mile]
30 "deadstop", or chest to ground, push-ups
100m sprint
16 40# sandbags onto 68inch platform
50m farmers carry w/ 2 40# water cans
25m high crawl, 25m 2-3 second rush
800m run [1 mile]

Rangers get 14 minutes total for theirs.
They'll then change into PTs, do a 32 minute 4 mile, then 6 chinups.

E3B is 27:30 for Infantry and 30:00 for everyone else.
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I reeeeeeeeaaaaallllly want to see this become our pass/fail PT event, or at least our version of a CFT. Might have to change the uniform/time standards a bit if pushed out to the total force, but it'd still be a positive assessment in my book.

 

[SpongeBob*24]

@Cookie_

That looks intense...I Wanna try it when I can walk again.

 

[Box]

...WTF is wrong with our standards?

Its because combat is apparently based on subjective truth.

It breaks down like this:
If a 43 year old multiparous biological female engages in hand-to-hand combat with a 25 year old biological male - the universe intervenes and makes the fight fair
even though it is a knife fight
to the death
in the mud
in the dark of night
after both combatant have spent the last 2 hours walking in rough terrain with 50+ pounds of weapons and equipment
...because muh' eqwalitee

 

[Marauder06]

Its because combat is apparently based on subjective truth.

It breaks down like this:
If a 43 year old multiparous biological female engages in hand-to-hand combat with a 25 year old biological male - the universe intervenes and makes the fight fair
even though it is a knife fight
to the death
in the mud
in the dark of night
after both combatant have spent the last 2 hours walking in rough terrain with 50+ pounds of weapons and equipment
...because muh' eqwalitee

 

[Cookie_]

Hegseth directs DOD organizations to establish gender neutral standards for combat and non-combat troops.




Modify it to something hard but reasonable (probably 30-35 minutes for combat arms and 40-45 minutes all others) and keep the ACFT as the test for promotion points.

Biggest hurdle (IMO) is determining if the standard is MOS or unit based. Like the example from the article:

One soldier may hold an infantry designation but be assigned to a non-combat role like recruiting, while another may work in an administrative role in a front-line unit.

 

[Florida173]

Biggest hurdle (IMO) is determining if the standard is MOS or unit based.

I'd imagine the criteria can be both but with occasional exceptions. Plus give units the authority to raise their own standards as has been the case.

 

[Marauder06]

So... why are we limiting equal treatment to just combat MOSs? Equal rights, equal fights. No more advantaging people simply because of their sex or their age. You do X or you don't do X. Not "pretty good for a girl" or "OK for an old guy." You're <this level> of physical fitness, or you're not. I don't know why this is hard.

 

[Cookie_]

So... why are we limiting equal treatment to just combat MOSs? Equal rights, equal fights. No more advantaging people simply because of their sex or their age. You do X or you don't do X. Not "pretty good for a girl" or "OK for an old guy." You're <this level> of physical fitness, or you're not. I don't know why this is hard.

I read it as gender neutral standards across the board, with the differences being based on combat/non-combat, I.E. how the ACFT was originally sold to be by MOS.

I agree that there's no reason it should be this hard. All they got to do is stop dicking around with changing the ACFT and just give us the PFA as our assessment.

 

[Marauder06]

I read it as gender neutral standards across the board, with the differences being based on combat/non-combat, I.E. how the ACFT was originally sold to be by MOS.

I agree that there's no reason it should be this hard. All they got to do is stop dicking around with changing the ACFT and just give us the PFA as our assessment.

I re-read the article and it appears you're right.

 

[Cookie_]

Move over ACFT, the Army Fitness Test (AFT) is on the way. Memo is real, but point tables aren’t out yet. Some interesting notes:

-The AFT is the ACFT minus the ball throw. I guess the ball throw was the only "combat" related task then?

-13B isn't a combat MOS. Neither is CA/PSY/MPs

-Combat soldiers must score 60 in each event, but a 350 overall. Why not just make the minimum 70 in each event? Soldiers on profile have to score 70 under this memo already.

-"Sex neutral and age-normed" are conflicting. Do we want one combat standard or not? If there's a risk for different standards for gender, then there is for age.

Overall, I don't hate it; gonna wait to see what new PT scores look like. Now get rid of it being for promotion points and I'll be happy with it.

 

[Spooky]

With the removal of the ball throw, my scores will look a lot nicer at least!

My arms are built for pushing, not yeeting.

 

[Cookie_]

Army Fitness Test score charts have dropped!

BLUF:

For males/combat arms-
Minimum(and max) deadlift increased by 10#
Push-up minimum increased 5 reps
Run minimum has decreased about 2 minutes.

For females-
Run has decreased 30 seconds
Pushup minimum increased by 1 rep (lolwut?)

For both-
No changes to plank, sprint/drag/carry, or score tables other than stated above.

So if I've got a new 21 year old infantry soldier who wants to hit the 350 points needed, they could do:

3x200# deadlift- 70 points
28 push-ups- 70 points
2:03 SDC- 70 points
2:02 plank- 70 points
18:35 2 mile- 70 points

or

3x150# deadlift- 60 points
15 push-ups- 60 points
2:28 SDC- 60 points
3:40 plank- 100 points
18:35 2 mile- 70 points

That doesn't seem like it should be the same, right? There should just be a standard baseline, not this weird half measure.

 

[SpongeBob*24]

From that link:



I would like to see @AWP , I mean the bot, write up instructions for all events...

THE ALL BACK LIFT MEASURES YER ABILITY TO MOVE STUFF VERTICALLY. ON THE COMAND GET SET, ASSUME A GOOD NEUTRAL BODY POSITION AND SNORT 3 LINES OF PRE-WORKOUT...

 

[AWP]

The backwards yeet measures your ability to toss stuff in an unnatural direction. On the command "get set", assume a good neutral position and chuck that sumbitch as hard as you can over your shoulder like a Harlem Globetrotter, avoiding murdering other soldiers. For a max score you must not grunt and scream like you're ejecting a 5-day MRE turd that's about to splash water up your butthole. What are your questions at this time?

 

[Marauder06]

The problem with sex-and-age normed PT standards is that we don't have sex-and-age normed promotions or job fields anymore. Because we're a military organization, physical fitness matters. Because we pretend to be a data-driven organization and there's a number affixed to a PT test, it becomes super important in things like promotions and selections. Being (or claiming to be? IDK how it works now) female gives a Soldier a built-in numeric advantage.

Equal rights, equal fights. What you get on the test--whatever it is--is the score. You're not "fit for a woman" or "fit for an old dude," you're either at X level of fitness or you're not. We can't go around saying "equal opportunity for all" when the system deliberately has its thumb on the scale in this manner. There are plenty of women who can reach a solid level of fitness. I've worked with many. There are plenty of men who are weak, or old, or both. I'm one of them now. But let's stop pretending that men and women are the same--they're not. And continuing to pretend that they are only weakens the system.

 

[AWP]

The problem with sex-and-age normed PT standards is that we don't have sex-and-age normed promotions or job fields anymore. Because we're a military organization, physical fitness matters. Because we pretend to be a data-driven organization and there's a number affixed to a PT test, it becomes super important in things like promotions and selections. Being (or claiming to be? IDK how it works now) female gives a Soldier a built-in numeric advantage.

Equal rights, equal fights. What you get on the test--whatever it is--is the score. You're not "fit for a woman" or "fit for an old dude," you're either at X level of fitness or you're not. We can't go around saying "equal opportunity for all" when the system deliberately has its thumb on the scale in this manner. There are plenty of women who can reach a solid level of fitness. I've worked with many. There are plenty of men who are weak, or old, or both. I'm one of them now. But let's stop pretending that men and women are the same--they're not. And continuing to pretend that they are only weakens the system.

Especially when a key component of your promotion potential is your PT score.

 

[Cookie_]

The problem with sex-and-age normed PT standards is that we don't have sex-and-age normed promotions or job fields anymore. Because we're a military organization, physical fitness matters. Because we pretend to be a data-driven organization and there's a number affixed to a PT test, it becomes super important in things like promotions and selections. Being (or claiming to be? IDK how it works now) female gives a Soldier a built-in numeric advantage.

Equal rights, equal fights. What you get on the test--whatever it is--is the score. You're not "fit for a woman" or "fit for an old dude," you're either at X level of fitness or you're not. We can't go around saying "equal opportunity for all" when the system deliberately has its thumb on the scale in this manner. There are plenty of women who can reach a solid level of fitness. I've worked with many. There are plenty of men who are weak, or old, or both. I'm one of them now. But let's stop pretending that men and women are the same--they're not. And continuing to pretend that they are only weakens the system.

I do not agree with the idea that female soldiers have a built-in numerical advantage with the PT test. Our scoring tables are based on perceived level of fitness to obtain those numbers; acknowledging that females have to have a higher effort to output ratio than males on these exercises is making the scale more reasonable, not making men disadvantaged.

I will die on the hill that our PT system is jacked up though, and it needs reformed.

There should be one "physical fitness assessment" that has a set standard for service, based on occupation/rank. Combat arms (up to E7/03 or E8/04 for 18 series) have one score, and everybody else gets another.

Then, we have an age/gender normed AFT for promotions, but we no longer provide raw scores for evaluations/applications. Instead, standards reporting into Meets, Exceeds, or Far Exceeds fitness requirements.

I'll use the 540+ standards as "far exceeds" and extrapolate it to the new test for how this might look.

Far exceeds- 80 minimum in each event, 450 overall
Exceeds- 70 minimum in each event, 400 overall
Meets= any other scores

Obviously this would need more evaluation to get to a true endstate, but I think it's the best option if we continue to think PT=leadership or technical/tactical ability.

 

[Marauder06]

I do not agree with the idea that female soldiers have a built-in numerical advantage with the PT test. Our scoring tables are based on perceived level of fitness to obtain those numbers; acknowledging that females have to have a higher effort to output ratio than males on these exercises is making the scale more reasonable, not making men disadvantaged.

I will die on the hill that our PT system is jacked up though, and it needs reformed.

There should be one "physical fitness assessment" that has a set standard for service, based on occupation/rank. Combat arms (up to E7/03 or E8/04 for 18 series) have one score, and everybody else gets another.

Then, we have an age/gender normed AFT for promotions, but we no longer provide raw scores for evaluations/applications. Instead, standards reporting into Meets, Exceeds, or Far Exceeds fitness requirements.

I'll use the 540+ standards as "far exceeds" and extrapolate it to the new test for how this might look.

Far exceeds- 80 minimum in each event, 450 overall
Exceeds- 70 minimum in each event, 400 overall
Meets= any other scores

Obviously this would need more evaluation to get to a true endstate, but I think it's the best option if we continue to think PT=leadership or technical/tactical ability.

What's there for you not to agree with? It's right there in the numbers that you yourself posted. The standards are lower for women. There is an obvious and undeniable advantage built into the system, which regularly manifests itself when men and women compete for things like positions and promotions.

The solution you're proposing doesn't get after the fundamental problem of "pretty fit for a woman" or "sort of fit for an old guy." The score is what the score is. Make the floor number low enough to accommodate initial entry and older troops. Make the top score challenging for the people--men AND women--who are in their physical prime. Different MOSs can have higher or lower (or different) cutoffs but if troops are doing the same jobs, they need to be held to the same standards. And right now that's not happening.

 

[SpongeBob*24]

From that link:

View attachment 47604

I would like to see @AWP , I mean the bot, write up instructions for all events...

THE ALL BACK LIFT MEASURES YER ABILITY TO MOVE STUFF VERTICALLY. ON THE COMAND GET SET, ASSUME A GOOD NEUTRAL BODY POSITION AND SNORT 3 LINES OF PRE-WORKOUT...

I ran out of time on my OG post, here's the remaining instructions for the deadlift:

AT THE COMMAND OF GO, YOU WILL LIFT THE WEIGHT 3 TIMES. THIS MOVEMENT REPRESENTS NOTHING OTHER THAN YOUR ABILITY TO MOVE A HEX BAR UP AND DOWN. MY COUSIN WORKS FOR CROSSFIT SO HE IS A BILLIONAIRE NOW B3CAUSE THE ARMY BOUGHT EVERYTHINGNEEDED FOR THIS TEST. I GO TO THE ISLAND HE OWNS TWICE A YEAR, ITS VARY NICE, I RECOMMEND THE SCUBA CLASSES ON TUESDAY. AFTER 3 REPS YOUR SCORER WILL TELL YOU HOW MUCH YOU SUCK OR HOW COOL YOU ARE THEN TO MOVE ON TO NEXT EVENT. YOU HAVE UNLIMITED TIME TO COMPLETE THIS STATION, WHAT ARE YOUR QUESTIONS?.

 

[Totentanz]

I ran out of time on my OG post, here's the remaining instructions for the deadlift:

AT THE COMMAND OF GO, YOU WILL LIFT THE WEIGHT 3 TIMES. THIS MOVEMENT REPRESENTS NOTHING OTHER THAN YOUR ABILITY TO MOVE A HEX BAR UP AND DOWN. MY COUSIN WORKS FOR CROSSFIT SO HE IS A BILLIONAIRE NOW B3CAUSE THE ARMY BOUGHT EVERYTHINGNEEDED FOR THIS TEST. I GO TO THE ISLAND HE OWNS TWICE A YEAR, ITS VARY NICE, I RECOMMEND THE SCUBA CLASSES ON TUESDAY. AFTER 3 REPS YOUR SCORER WILL TELL YOU HOW MUCH YOU SUCK OR HOW COOL YOU ARE THEN TO MOVE ON TO NEXT EVENT. YOU HAVE UNLIMITED TIME TO COMPLETE THIS STATION, WHAT ARE YOUR QUESTIONS?.

I feel like this is prime material for a Holy Hex Bar of Antioch task briefing….