Army to Cut LRSC/ LRSD Units

[ThunderHorse]

Unless there is a fundamental shift in MTOE slotting for conventional Cavalry units to build a similar capability, this will be one of those things that gets lost. Culturally I've been in a Cavalry unit that did the Recon and Security Fight and another that was used more like a a smaller infantry battalion. And to build this capability within a conventional Cavalry unit it will take a cultural shift in supporting it. I just know that getting guys to school and guys that want to go to school was tough when I was on the line. Plenty of guys that wanted to go to SFAS though.

I guess we should have seen this coming when they removed the conventional portion of the reconnaissance capability from the BFSB in the transition to EMIB. I will point out the Corps Recce BDE Concept is coming back around and there's an exercise with FORSCOM on it during the next fiscal year. In current doctrine the Corps or Division Commander will task organize a BDE for an R/S BDE. The formation becomes pretty robust, but I am still trying to figure how you properly staff it since you're taking a conventional BDE and giving it this mission. And to do it effectively it would require doing that mission for a period of years.

I was told by one of the SAMS planners here in the shop there will be a monograph coming out, the author was a former LRC Coy CDR and basically wrote a recommendation to retire them since they were not value added to the fight.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

Well TX ARNG is transitioning from a ID to a Sustainment Command...saw it with my own eyes.

Where do you hear or see that TXARNG is restructuring?

 

[ThunderHorse]

See PM

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

Thanks.

 

[Etype]

"Recon as we once knew it is dead .....in the Army." The Marine Corps still has organic units whose primary focus is long range reconnaissance.

Yeah, but you folks also still use mildot scopes. I heard those were all the rage for dinosaur hunting.

 

[Teufel]

Yeah, but you folks also still use mildot scopes. I heard those were all the rage for dinosaur hunting.

Dead is dead. I remember sending dirt bags to Allah with iron sights. Never forget that wars are won by hard men and not equipment.

In any event a Marine Reconaissance scout has an assortment of optics available to him to see and photograph distant targets.

I was in favor of the MOA sniper scopes we used back in the day but the Marine Corps transitioned away from them. Are you referring to long gun sights or carbine?

 

[Etype]

Dead is dead. I remember sending dirt bags to Allah with iron sights. Never forget that wars are won by hard men and not equipment.

In any event a Marine Reconaissance scout has an assortment of optics available to him to see and photograph distant targets.

I was in favor of the MOA sniper scopes we used back in the day but the Marine Corps transitioned away from them. Are you referring to long gun sights or carbine?

I don't really know what you guys use, I was just poking.

 

[Poccington]

No amount of poxy satellites or drones will ever be better than having a detachment of lads, in position and with eyes on target.

That's my view on it anyway.

 

[AWP]

Don't forget that ADM Turner, the DCI under Carter, wanted to virtually eliminate field agents. He did in fact make huge cuts in personnel in favor of IMINT and SIGINT. This sentiment isn't new and I think it is another example of a very risk adverse culture in the military.

 

[Teufel]

Don't forget that ADM Turner, the DCI under Carter, wanted to virtually eliminate field agents. He did in fact make huge cuts in personnel in favor of IMINT and SIGINT. This sentiment isn't new and I think it is another example of a very risk adverse culture in the military.

Worst case scenario they put dinosaur hunters like me on ice until we are needed like they did in that documentary movie Demolition Man.

 

[reed11b]

"Recon as we once knew it is dead .....in the Army." The Marine Corps still has organic units whose primary focus is long range reconnaissance.

Damn it Teufel... I almost gave you a hate simply for being right. And for pointing out that IN THIS CASE, the USMC is a little smarter than the Army.
Reed

 

[Etype]

No amount of poxy satellites or drones will ever be better than having a detachment of lads, in position and with eyes on target.

That's my view on it anyway.

Satellites are never compromised on the OBJ, they don't have to infil and exfil, they don't get tired, they don't run out of food or water, satellites aren't DF'd when they key their radios...

 

[AWP]

*INT is a tool, all of them valuable. You don't replace a jigsaw just because a circular saw also cuts wood.

 

[Teufel]

Satellites are never compromised on the OBJ, they don't have to infil and exfil, they don't get tired, they don't run out of food or water, satellites aren't DF'd when they key their radios...

They also aren't persistent and can't control fires.

 

[Etype]

They also aren't persistent and can't control fires.

Not entirely true.

eta-

Scout platoons still exist at the Bn level. In addition to that, zone and area recon is a platoon level mission that they should all be able to accomplish. Tactical recon is still covered.

As far as strategic and theater recon assets, we have units who can and do handle that. The Army isn't giving up a capability.

 

[Teufel]

Not entirely true.

eta-

Scout platoons still exist at the Bn level. In addition to that, zone and area recon is a platoon level mission that they should all be able to accomplish. Tactical recon is still covered.

As far as strategic and theater recon assets, we have units who can and do handle that. The Army isn't giving up a capability.

Something still has to exist to cover the large gap left between battalion level and national level requirements.

There are specialized units that can conduct these reconnaissance missions, however they are finite and not organic to the conventional Army. The same can be said about satellites.

A Marine Expeditionary Brigade commander has organic assets that can conduct long range amphibious and ground reconnaissance for him using a variety of specialized insertion and extraction skills. This capability was demonstrated in Grenada, Somalia, Desert Storm, and the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. The Army used to have similar units but is choosing to retire this capability within its general purpose force.

The Navy used to have the UDT/SEALs do all their beach and shallow water reconnaissance. It was one of the missions they were tasked with when SEALs used to float on Naval shipping. This ended abruptly the moment the Navy assigned the SEALs to USSOCOM. The Navy's requirements for beach reconnaissance did not change but USSOCOM had different priorities for their new unit and the Navy's requirements were gapped.

There will always be competing demands for specialized resources of all kinds in major combat operations. This is why it's important to have organic assets to answer all of your warfighting requirements. This is why every intelligence discipline exists in every service as well as SOF.

 

[CDG]

What happens in MCO when we aren't able to utilize our satellites?

 

[ThunderHorse]

Something still has to exist to cover the large gap left between battalion level and national level requirements.

There are specialized units that can conduct these reconnaissance missions, however they are finite and not organic to the conventional Army. The same can be said about satellites.

A Marine Expeditionary Brigade commander has organic assets that can conduct long range amphibious and ground reconnaissance for him using a variety of specialized insertion and extraction skills. This capability was demonstrated in Grenada, Somalia, Desert Storm, and the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. The Army used to have similar units but is choosing to retire this capability within its general purpose force.

The Navy used to have the UDT/SEALs do all their beach and shallow water reconnaissance. It was one of the missions they were tasked with when SEALs used to float on Naval shipping. This ended abruptly the moment the Navy assigned the SEALs to USSOCOM. The Navy's requirements for beach reconnaissance did not change but USSOCOM had different priorities for their new unit and the Navy's requirements were gapped.

There will always be competing demands for specialized resources of all kinds in major combat operations. This is why it's important to have organic assets to answer all of your warfighting requirements. This is why every intelligence discipline exists in every service as well as SOF.

There is an ARCIC test for the Division and Corps level Recon coming up with a task organized Reconnaissance and Security BDE. The Army has dedicated reconnaissance assets above the BN Scout platoon in the Reconnaissance squadrons assigned to each BDE. But beyond that there is no DIV Level or Corps Reconnaissance formation or assets now that the BFSB and the LRS Companies are being cut. The R/S BDE is just a task organized BCT filling a role within doctrine, they get beefed up, but at some point that BDE will give up that mission.

 

[Etype]

What happens in MCO when we aren't able to utilize our satellites?

The same thing that happened in ODS, OEF, OIF, et al.

We used our special units for their special missions.

eta-

Something still has to exist to cover the large gap left between battalion level and national level requirements.

Such a thing does exist, and it's currently manned in every GCC.

 

[Teufel]

The same thing that happened in ODS, OEF, OIF, et al.

We used our special units for their special missions.

eta-


Such a thing does exist, and it's currently manned in every GCC.

"Such a thing" will not normally work for a brigade commander. There are often unity of effort and unity of command issues when using SOF forces, especially highly specialized ones, in support of smaller conventional units.

These entities, and SOF in general, are finite given their specialized nature. These forces may be available in a small contingency operation but will be harder to come by in a large scale conflict because of operational requirements and priorities of effort. This is why we have SIGINT and HUMINT assets in every service for example.