CMMG decent quality lower?

[8'Duece]

Check your state laws for SBR uppers. (short barreled rifle)

Here in Kentucky we are NFA friendly and can purchase the shorter upper reciever groups and then get the Form 1 approved. You can possess the short barrel upper but you cannot pin it to your lower and fire it till you get your Form 1 approved.

I've already got another BCM 11.5" inch upper withe DD Lite 10" rail in my closet for another registered SBR lower.

Check your states NFA laws first before you opt for anything less than the 16" pre ban style with removable flash hider.

 

[koz]

Things that are non negotiable in my AR builds:

1. 4150 Mil Spec barrels with 1/7 twist. Even better is M249 grade barrels with 249 chrome lining. (Noveske N4 uppers and barrels) Stainless Steel is great but there is a weigtht trade off with a heavy stainless barrel. The 4150 CMV is preferred over Chrome moly commercial barrels.

2. Large M4 cut feed ramps.

3. NATO 556 chamber. .223 is fine but if your going to battle and NATO ammunition is only available your shit out of luck with a .223 only chambered barrel.

4. HPT and MPI tested parts. Barrels and BCG groups.

5. 7075 grade recievers. I'm just picky that way.

6. Carbine gas system is fine but if I can improve it with a 9" mid length I'm going to save the wear and tear on my system.

7. Free Float rail system. No two piece systems for me, unless it's the DD Omega rail, which a free float in a two piece system.

8. High quality optics and mounts. No cheap knock offs from Wal Mart or Meirs. Read "Tasco"

9. A3 flat top upper recievers. Self explanatory.

I'm with 82nd on most of this stuff - However I like the 1/8 twist barrels...
I also like the wylde chamber. Noveske makes some great barrels. Rainier, Larue and WOA also have good barrels
Bravo also the 7075 upper receivers in stock. I've got several of these

I'll never buy another carbine length when I can buy a mid-length.

 

[arizonaguide]

MUCH appreciated KOZ/82!!! :cool: I've learned a TON in the last few days!
Looks like plenty of time to learn, cuz freakin lower parts from RRA and Brownells are out of stock. (of course I should have known that!)

 

[koz]

MUCH appreciated KOZ/82!!! :cool: I've learned a TON in the last few days!
Looks like plenty of time to learn, cuz freakin lower parts from RRA and Brownells are out of stock. (of course I should have known that!)

What lower parts are you looking for... I may ;) know where you can acquire some parts.

 

[arizonaguide]

What lower parts are you looking for... I may ;) know where you can acquire some parts.

Well, before I started reading/listening to you guys I was just going to grab anything...but now I'm thinking I'd like to get something that's a decent "name" brand (probably better metal/springs) of some kind for the CMMG stripped lower (something about smaller "not Colt" holes/pins) right?
:cool:

So, I was sticking to the RRA or Brownells sites...but Brownells is completely out of stock on lower parts kits, and RRA says "get on the list with your credit card...and someday we will send it when we can".
:doh:

I think I will order that RRA Star Safetly selector though, and maybe a Hogue grip...to replace the Standard grip that comes with the kit (typically).
I also liked the looks of that guy in Colorado Springs trigger work, so I was gonna email him and (maybe) get the trigger parts from him (with the work already done).
If I do that (trigger) and then get a Carbine type stock with the Buffer parts, I may just need to get the "repair kit" for the ballance of the lower parts. I have to look and see what's what.
Still sorting it out, and learning like a MF!

 

[koz]

Here's a good start for in stock stuff- I think the hardest thing to find is bolt and bolt carrier.. I wouldn't wait too long on a barrel.


CMMG lower Brownells in stock

Magpul MIAD full kit black

High standard MIL spec extension tube

Bravo co upper receiver w/ M4 cuts

Bravo MPI & HPT 410 barrel 16" midlength

RRA star selector

Colt H2 buffer

Bushmaster Bolt carrier - I'm not sure the quality of Bushmaster parts. 82nd can you shed light on this?

Trust me on the MIAD grip.. you can customize the backstrap for the best fit to your hand.. I'll never buy another grip.

 

[arizonaguide]

We have a "repair kit" at work (in stock) but I'm still figuring out what's in it, and if it's "cheap shit" to begin with. We've been outta stock on Complete Lower Parts Kits at the shop for a month (same brand, CAA or something, and maybe shit anyway).
:cool:

That looks like the exact same lower I have at that link from Brownells. Mines the stripped lower, so looking for just the "parts kit".
Thanks for the links though Koz!

Question, what are the options for a barrel without the front sight? I don't fully understand the gas system, but I DO know I'm going without a front sight eventually, and would rather just get it without one to start with. But is the gas system interconnected w/part of the front sight assembly? I've got some learning to do...but I'm not ashamed to admit it!
My plan is a flat-top with (non-magnified) optics (only).

Yup it is the same one. CMMG, Mod4 SA. Got it (stripped) for $115

 

[koz]

We have a "repair kit" at work (in stock) but I'm still figuring out what's in it, and if it's "cheap shit" to begin with. We've been outta stock on Complete Lower Parts Kits at the shop for a month (same brand, CAA or something, and maybe shit anyway).
:cool:

That looks like the exact same lower I have at that link from Brownells. Mines the stripped lower, so looking for just the "parts kit".
Thanks for the links though Koz!

Question, what are the options for a barrel without the front sight? I don't fully understand the gas system, but I DO know I'm going without a front sight eventually, and would rather just get it without one to start with. But is the gas system interconnected w/part of the front sight assembly? I've got some learning to do...but I'm not ashamed to admit it!
My plan is a flat-top with (non-magnified) optics (only).

Most LPK's have DPMS parts. Call Fulton Armory and see if they have one in stock...

As far as the barrel without a front sight: You'll need a gas block and a gas tube (part that interconnects the gas block to the receiver) - Again I may can help here with the gas tube. The normal front sight on most M16/M4/AR's is the gas block as well. Many people now are going with a low profile gas block and a folding front sight on the quad-rail (forearm).

The barrel has a small hole where the front sight/gas block goes.. The gas block has a small on and a hole where the gas tube then slides in and is pinned to the gas block. The gas block goes down the top of the barrel to the receiver and actually the bolt carrier meets up with it. Gas comes out the barrel, to the gas block to the gas tube, then into the bolt carrier which pushes the bolt carrier assembly back - thus ejecting the empty brass and cycling a new round. This gas is what makes chamber dirty and why the piston driven systems have become popular.

 

[arizonaguide]

As far as the barrel without a front sight: You'll need a gas block and a gas tube (part that interconnects the gas block to the receiver) - Again I may can help here with the gas tube. The normal front sight on most M16/M4/AR's is the gas block as well. Many people now are going with a low profile gas block and a folding front sight on the quad-rail (forearm).

Yup, I thought it was kinda tied in, yet I see many at work that have the "gas block". That's what I was leaning toward...Optics, and a fold down rig of some kind for backup.

The barrel has a small hole where the front sight/gas block goes.. The gas block has a small on and a hole where the gas tube then slides in and is pinned to the gas block. The gas block goes down the top of the barrel to the receiver and actually the bolt carrier meets up with it. Gas comes out the barrel, to the gas block to the gas tube, then into the bolt carrier which pushes the bolt carrier assembly back - thus ejecting the empty brass and cycling a new round. This gas is what makes chamber dirty and why the piston driven systems have become popular.

Yup! I was finally figuring that out after finding those animations (linked above). Shit, the last I remember of all this was on the old USAF M-16's circa 1980's, so it's been awhile since. :cool: Thanks Bro! Good stuff.

 

[arizonaguide]

Looks like that Fulton Armory link is excellent for parts for M1Garands and such also.
Here's the link everybody: http://www.fulton-armory.com/M16.htm
Good stuff KOZ! Great link.

 

[8'Duece]

Here's a good start for in stock stuff- I think the hardest thing to find is bolt and bolt carrier.. I wouldn't wait too long on a barrel.


CMMG lower Brownells in stock

Magpul MIAD full kit black

High standard MIL spec extension tube

Bravo co upper receiver w/ M4 cuts

Bravo MPI & HPT 410 barrel 16" midlength

RRA star selector

Colt H2 buffer

Bushmaster Bolt carrier - I'm not sure the quality of Bushmaster parts. 82nd can you shed light on this?

Trust me on the MIAD grip.. you can customize the backstrap for the best fit to your hand.. I'll never buy another grip.

As for the Bushy BCG I can't say, never had a Bushy or their BCG group. Although through the years I've seen what I would call a QC issue with Bushmaster almost all over the board. Some of that is just users on the net and some are actually rifles that I've seen fail and not feed and extract when nothing seems to missing or wrong with the weapon. I'm just not a fan of Bushmaster. That's just my limited experience.

With that said I would stick to LMT, RRA, CMMG, and and BCM stuff. Bravo Company Manufacturing is good kit and little known with the non-military AR crowd. Most are just purchasing anything off the rack and I'm not a fan of that response to the current political climate. To each their own I guess.

As for grips and such I too am a Magpul MIAD grip lover with the "Enhanced" trigger guard. It's easy to install and doesn't require you to punch pin in the rear pin as with a standard trigger guard. Has the removable back straps and fits my hands much better than standard grips. These too are personal preference. Ergo grips are nice, Hogue, etc.

I like LaRue Stealth upper reciever groups also, but they are not cheap. But, if you want some of the best than your going to have put out some money to acquire the right parts and accessories to build a rifle worth your time. IMHO

Some will tell you that just about any recievers are decent. That's not necessarily false since only a few companies manufacture recievers for most of the commercial market. But, if your with a rec'd name brand out of 7075 grade then your in the high end market.

I'll post more when I'm not tired.

 

[arizonaguide]

I like LaRue Stealth upper reciever groups also, but they are not cheap. But, if you want some of the best than your going to have put out some money to acquire the right parts and accessories to build a rifle worth your time. IMHO

I'll post more when I'm not tired.

True fact. I want to emphasize "dependability" more than "accuracy", and with an emphasis on being a closer range weapon...and mostly I just don't want to have to repeat purchase because I bought garbage the first time.

For example, I can get parts kits (etc) through work, but they are CAA parts, and I'm not sure about their quality. As it turns out I'm getting a Fulton Armory LPK from a friend, and I'm more comfortable with that. And it's a basic parts kit without a trigger, so this will help "motivate" me to go ahead and get a good trigger.

This is getting to be a great thread folks, and I've learned much in the last couple days! KEEP it coming!!! I need to know what I'm selling (and drooling over) at the shop, and I knew this would be a great way to learn the "modern" AR platform. I have been surprised at some of the things I've learned (about Bushmaster, for example)...and didn't realize that Colt had slightly different hardware in places. Already, you guys have saved me much grief (read that $$$). :2c:

 

[arizonaguide]

Okay, lotsa reading today, and one question still: Gas systems?

I am thinking I want a 16" barrel, with no front sight (flattop, with optics only, and fold-down BUIS (front and rear) mounted on the rails (front=grip rail or whatever)).
So, correct me if I'm wrong, but I need a 16" barrel (or 14.5" with a welded flash hider bringing it to 16") and that will come with a mid-length gas system already?

And, with that midlength system, I can use a lowprofile gas block, and a "free floating" front grip with a rail for the fold down front sight?

Even after reading, I'm still confused about the barrel/gas system/front grip-gas block options.
:cool:

And on the subject of barrels, I want one with a 5.56 chamber (dependability not accuracy), chrome lined (or stainless), M4 feed ramps, and a 1-7 twist, correct, to be able to shoot (stabilize) the HEAVIEST bullets available, correct?
That I think I DO have figured out.

 

[8'Duece]

Okay, lotsa reading today, and one question still: Gas systems?

I am thinking I want a 16" barrel, with no front sight (flattop, with optics only, and fold-down BUIS (front and rear) mounted on the rails (front=grip rail or whatever)).
So, correct me if I'm wrong, but I need a 16" barrel (or 14.5" with a welded flash hider bringing it to 16") and that will come with a mid-length gas system already?

And, with that midlength system, I can use a lowprofile gas block, and a "free floating" front grip with a rail for the fold down front sight?

Even after reading, I'm still confused about the barrel/gas system/front grip-gas block options.
:cool:

And on the subject of barrels, I want one with a 5.56 chamber (dependability not accuracy), chrome lined (or stainless), M4 feed ramps, and a 1-7 twist, correct, to be able to shoot (stabilize) the HEAVIEST bullets available, correct?
That I think I DO have figured out.

Yes, yes and yes !!

Most of the commercial market upper reciever groups will have a carbine gas system, but you can build or find a mid length gas system if you look hard enough for them. Google is your friend.

Your barrle will have to be cut with the gas port for mid length system so look for barrels with the "mid length" gas port for use with a low profile gas block and then look into the a rail system that is 10" for cover over the gas block.

You can then use Troy front and rear flip up iron sights on your front and rear rail and then add your optics once you decide what what you desire.

Gas tubes are cheap/inexpensive and you purchase them alone or have a mid-length gas system purchased on with the upper reciever group. Have a look at BCM and LMT.

HTH

82ndtrooper

 

[arizonaguide]

Too much FUN with this!!!

Fuckin-A! I think, thanks to you and Koz, I'm starting to get this shit down! :cool: I'm good on the gas tube, now just need to find the right barrel to go with it! ;)
Starting to understand the options now, and what goes with what (to look for).
Thanks folks!!! BIG time.

Now to finalize a stock choice! :cool: Leaning toward the Magpul CTR buttstock (w/ rubber buttpad) and will go with your suggestions of the MIAD grip choice.

 

[arizonaguide]

A case of 23 for you...(I drank one!)

:cool::)

 

[8'Duece]

:cool::)

Scroll down here for a CMMG middy upper: http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/shop/?cart=1717936&cat=27&


Good kit ! and you replace the handguards later with a rail system. It's a 14.5" barrel with a pinned flash hider which makes its legal for ya.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

Sounds like 82nd and Koz got you taken care of here; I just wanted to add a lil tid bit.

Barrel twist is probably your most important decision of all, I watched too many guys go for an all mil-spec blah-blah-balh M4 thinking the Mil has the best shit. We simply don’t and one of the biggest damn problems IMO is the barrel twist. 1/7 was picked so that it would stabilize the M856 tracer round, not the M855 (ss109 ball). 1/8 – 1/9 will stabilize the 55gr-80gr bullets a lot better. Personally a wylde chamber 1/8 twist barrel with an 11 degree target crown and I would reload nothing but 77gr match ammo. You can still run all the normal market stuff and NATO ammo (M193 – M855) through it, but you have the best degree of accuracy coming from your barrel.

Ammo needs to be matched up to the barrel for your best reliability and accuracy, brass should be ran through the same chamber (hints reload) and once you find a bullet that works the best with your barrel, your data will become more consistent. The reliability comes from multi areas, but accuracy is in the barrel/ ammo. To me these are the most important, b/c if your gun runs, but you can hit shit “you are still fucked”!

Now if this is just a truck gun, room-broom, don’t give a fuck about it “I’m not going to get clean it” AR, then go chrome molly coat 1/9 and buy a shit load of wolf steal case 55gr ammo.

What ever you do, do not go above a 1/9 twist for any reason and do not run lacquered covered ammo through your rifle. ;)

 

[8'Duece]

Sounds like 82nd and Koz got you taken care of here; I just wanted to add a lil tid bit.

Barrel twist is probably your most important decision of all, I watched too many guys go for an all mil-spec blah-blah-balh M4 thinking the Mil has the best shit. We simply don’t and one of the biggest damn problems IMO is the barrel twist. 1/7 was picked so that it would stabilize the M856 tracer round, not the M855 (ss109 ball). 1/8 – 1/9 will stabilize the 55gr-80gr bullets a lot better. Personally a wylde chamber 1/8 twist barrel with an 11 degree target crown and I would reload nothing but 77gr match ammo. You can still run all the normal market stuff and NATO ammo (M193 – M855) through it, but you have the best degree of accuracy coming from your barrel.

Ammo needs to be matched up to the barrel for your best reliability and accuracy, brass should be ran through the same chamber (hints reload) and once you find a bullet that works the best with your barrel, your data will become more consistent. The reliability comes from multi areas, but accuracy is in the barrel/ ammo. To me these are the most important, b/c if your gun runs, but you can hit shit “you are still fucked”!

Now if this is just a truck gun, room-broom, don’t give a fuck about it “I’m not going to get clean it” AR, then go chrome molly coat 1/9 and buy a shit load of wolf steal case 55gr ammo.

What ever you do, do not go above a 1/9 twist for any reason and do not run lacquered covered ammo through your rifle. ;)

Great post !!!

I just like the tighter twist because I run heavier ammo throuth my AR's, but JAB makes a great point with the comprimises between 1/8 and 1/9 twist rates.

I'm just a heavy load guy. ;)


I would like to add that the faster twist rates are not suitable for all rounds. For instance my local SWAT team insists on a 1/7 twist rate with frangible round. What ? it's already franging out of the bore before it get's to it's target. There is a threshold to frangible and it's not with a faster twist rate. :uhh:

At least that's my experience.

.02

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

I would like to add that the faster twist rates are not suitable for all rounds. For instance my local SWAT team insists on a 1/7 twist rate with frangible round. What ? it's already franging out of the bore before it get's to it's target. There is a threshold to frangible and it's not with a faster twist rate. :uhh:

Well I am sure they have a good reason for that! Must be a SWAT thing ;) :doh:

For a majority of off the shelf loads, 1/9 is going to give you the friendly medium. Personally the 1/7.75 - 1/ 8 with MK262 or a reload equivalent has been the best match up of ammo to barrel I have found. Especially when your brass is between the 2nd to 4th reload, after 4 reloads it should be tossed. Basically the brass molds it self to the chamber of your rifle and makes up for small unnoticeable defects that only come to light at distance.