College entrance "scandal"

I saw this on a site regarding a completely different topic but it got me thinking about my own position vs @Marauder06 on the scandal. I think the writer goes a bit far but the premise seems to ring true to me.

First things first. We cannot approach the analysis of .... (here, college scandal) or any of the officials within the closed-circle of the DC fiefdom from a reference drawn from our own personal experiences. The people we are discussing are not connected to a frame of reference carried by 99% of the American population.

The DC elites are people born to live in a hierarchy of power and position disconnected from any external tribe. Their sense of self-importance is affirmed by perceived status and expressed through their daily conduct. A world of think-tanks, superiority training, traditions and policy-making enhances their sanctimonious self-importance at a pathological level.

These cloistered communities generate people who find themselves in line during a vacation and cannot reconcile their wait-time amid those who do not recognize them. Their frame of reference is to stand aghast saying: “don’t you know who I am?”

Back in their tribal DC community their restaurant seating is determined by their status; an unspoken social structure where simple indulgences are afforded in relation to their inherent power and social position within the community.
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I wonder how many Ivy League graduates go on to lead “normal” lives or the the school merely a pathway TO a higher status? Hmmm.
 
lindy said:
I saw this on a site regarding a completely different topic but it got me thinking about my own position vs @Marauder06 on the scandal. I think the writer goes a bit far but the premise seems to ring true to me.



I wonder how many Ivy League graduates go on to lead “normal” lives or the the school merely a pathway TO a higher status? Hmmm.
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Given that a lot of ivy league and higher tier (i.e., Duke, Stanford, UT, etc.) graduates go into jobs with higher pay and better connections, there is a misplaced perception of normalcy. There is their normal, and regular Joe normal.

What I have found to be interesting is how many graduates of these schools could not get jobs in their degree fields (art history, sociology) and have gone to get a second degree in nursing, sometimes at the local community college.
 
lindy said:
I saw this on a site regarding a completely different topic but it got me thinking about my own position vs @Marauder06 on the scandal. I think the writer goes a bit far but the premise seems to ring true to me.



I wonder how many Ivy League graduates go on to lead “normal” lives or the the school merely a pathway TO a higher status? Hmmm.
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I think it depends on what they study.

I have many friends who graduated from an Ivy. Most are doctors or nurses (both RNs and CRNAs). Their career trajectory has been normal for those professions.

One of my colleagues is finishing up an undergrad degree in criminology at an Ivy, and is considering continuing into a graduate program. Another is in a graduate program in organizational development at that same Ivy—a degree held by my chief and and another senior leader in my department.

My chief makes crazy money and wields influence disproportionate to their position. The senior leader, not so much. My colleague in the criminology program has no illusions of joining a think tank or some such after graduation (although he is doing very interesting research on functional magnetic resonance imaging and polygraphs).

I do also know some folks whose Ivy education formed the keystone of hugely successful careers. These folks did not study medicine, nursing, criminology or leadership.

This is an interesting discussion that reminds me of the nature vs nurture debate. But the truth is that people who graduate from Ivy League schools will have connections and opportunities that many others will not.

There is a reason that job listings on LinkedIn show me how many alumni from my school work at a particular company.
 
@policemedic , I really can't say much about most degrees. I know with a lot of "soft" majors school is largely irrelevant. I suppose in grad school it can change the trajectory as you get closer to the important professors and researchers and further away from TAs.

I know medical school doesn't always matter as much as residency, and a lot of residencies are more who you know than what you know as far as getting in.

Nursing schools, unless you are applying for a job in nursing leadership or academia, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter at all. Has a hiring manager I will hire a nurse from the community college as quickly as it would hire a nurse from Duke.

But I know there's always exceptions to rules. But definitely do better universities, including the ivy league, can have influence over career trajectories beyond what the actual degree is in.
 
Devildoc said:
@policemedic , I really can't say much about most degrees. I know with a lot of "soft" majors school is largely irrelevant. I suppose in grad school it can change the trajectory as you get closer to the important professors and researchers and further away from TAs.

I know medical school doesn't always matter as much as residency, and a lot of residencies are more who you know than what you know as far as getting in.

Nursing schools, unless you are applying for a job in nursing leadership or academia, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter at all. Has a hiring manager I will hire a nurse from the community college as quickly as it would hire a nurse from Duke.

But I know there's always exceptions to rules. But definitely do better universities, including the ivy league, can have influence over career trajectories beyond what the actual degree is in.
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It may not matter to you as the hiring manager but I can tell you with out a doubt that it can make a difference on the “nursing floor”. Mediocre and good schools usually produce competent new grad nurses bu some of these little CC ADN programs don’t give the new RNs what it takes to be at least safe when they start. And being good is years away.

Most people on the administrative side consider filling a slot with any nurse they can hire as good enough-throw them in and let them get swallowed by the system. Nurses are treated like another supply item, get them in, use them up, order some more. May as well be a bed pan.
 
SOSTCRNA said:
It may not matter to you as the hiring manager but I can tell you with out a doubt that it can make a difference on the “nursing floor”. Mediocre and good schools usually produce competent new grad nurses bu some of these little CC ADN programs don’t give the new RNs what it takes to be at least safe when they start. And being good is years away.

Most people on the administrative side consider filling a slot with any nurse they can hire as good enough-throw them in and let them get swallowed by the system. Nurses are treated like another supply item, get them in, use them up, order some more. May as well be a bed pan.
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Can you share the data that supports that? Happy to take it in a PM or email. The data I have for the research shows otherwise, so if you have data that shows it I would love to see it. Not calling you out at all.... I am fully aware that when I did my lit searches that I could have overlooked the research. I would also be interested to see if there is any pre-licensure difference between the curriculum of community colleges across state lines to see how that filters out as well.

FWIW our institution routinely gets applicants for the clinical nurse 1 (CN1) position from almost every school in North Carolina, and a good handful from throughout the US, so we have a very stratified population from which to choose. There is extremely little qualitative difference between the private school top 5 BSN program and the local community college.

Internal to our institution our research has shown that there's very little competence for clinical difference between graduate nurses despite program, although some may be better in certain areas than others. We do see a difference after one year of work, and see that the nursing leadership and education during orientation and the first-year practice makes more difference to their safety and outcome.

Of course this is different than certification, in which there is data to support that certified nurses are safer and have better outcomes than non certified nurses,. What I would like to see his certification versus month certification correlated with years of experience to see how that data filters.

Don't even get me started on DNP....
 
Devildoc said:
@policemedic , I really can't say much about most degrees. I know with a lot of "soft" majors school is largely irrelevant. I suppose in grad school it can change the trajectory as you get closer to the important professors and researchers and further away from TAs.
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I am supposing that by soft you mean social sciences and humanities in which case I would whole-heartedly disagree with you. I would say that STEM degrees are a little more "objective" in that science is science (like you stated with nurses), and you either know it or you don't excepting little differences in faculty curricula and teaching skill whereas in a "soft" class, your perceptions and grasp of the material can be highly dependent on your faculty with bigger name programs generally possessing what are perceived to be more capable faculty (I disagree, I think they have just distinguished themselves with research, but I digress). These non-STEM degrees, business degrees, and others are where school reputation matters much more, whether that's going to a reputable grad/professional school or an entry-level job.
 
Dienekes said:
I am supposing that by soft you mean social sciences and humanities in which case I would whole-heartedly disagree with you. I would say that STEM degrees are a little more "objective" in that science is science (like you stated with nurses), and you either know it or you don't excepting little differences in faculty curricula and teaching skill whereas in a "soft" class, your perceptions and grasp of the material can be highly dependent on your faculty with bigger name programs generally possessing what are perceived to be more capable faculty (I disagree, I think they have just distinguished themselves with research, but I digress). These non-STEM degrees, business degrees, and others are where school reputation matters much more, whether that's going to a reputable grad/professional school or an entry-level job.
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Just for my own edification, can you show me a top 10 sociology program? And where a bachelor's degree in sociology can get you into the job market > $60k? Or English? Or art history? Or women's studies?

A degree with any of these from a Yale, Duke, Princeton, Stanford will probably get you more money than a Northeastern Montana State, but generally that is globally not the case. I would even argue that a degree from one of those schools will not get you much more then from a school that is not top-tier. Graduate school, maybe. Undergrad, I don't think so.
 
Devildoc said:
Just for my own edification, can you show me a top 10 sociology program? And where a bachelor's degree in sociology can get you into the job market > $60k? Or English? Or art history? Or women's studies?

A degree with any of these from a Yale, Duke, Princeton, Stanford will probably get you more money than a Northeastern Montana State, but generally that is globally not the case. I would even argue that a degree from one of those schools will not get you much more then from a school that is not top-tier. Graduate school, maybe. Undergrad, I don't think so.
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You said school choice for one of those majors doesn't matter. I'd argue an English major is not trying to join the private sector straight out of undergrad compared to a kid with a mechanical engineering degree. Obviously, degree choice matters, but comparing them that way is comparing apples to oranges. You're not gonna get a degree in art history and go work for Wall Street. No one is disputing that. But that English degree from Harvard has a better chance of getting into a top 15 Law school that will see this kid making big bucks 5 years out compared to an English degree NE Montana State. Comparing the kids getting those "soft" degrees and their career opportunities via school reputation is what we're discussing here. Not whether a STEM degree is more marketable than a "soft" degree or a women's studies degree from Princeton compared to a construction management degree from WVU.

I would also argue that top-tier extends down to even the top 50 schools, but even the opportunities afforded the top 20 programs in the country are pretty different than those afforded to #30-50. Arguably still outstanding schools. Not even arguable really. Anything top 50 is outstanding and something to be proud of, but those are the kids who probably could have gotten into those top 20 or Ivy schools who've really gotten the shaft and where the margins more akin to this discussion lie.
 
Devildoc said:
Can you share the data that supports that? Happy to take it in a PM or email. The data I have for the research shows otherwise, so if you have data that shows it I would love to see it. Not calling you out at all.... I am fully aware that when I did my lit searches that I could have overlooked the research. I would also be interested to see if there is any pre-licensure difference between the curriculum of community colleges across state lines to see how that filters out as well.

FWIW our institution routinely gets applicants for the clinical nurse 1 (CN1) position from almost every school in North Carolina, and a good handful from throughout the US, so we have a very stratified population from which to choose. There is extremely little qualitative difference between the private school top 5 BSN program and the local community college.

Internal to our institution our research has shown that there's very little competence for clinical difference between graduate nurses despite program, although some may be better in certain areas than others. We do see a difference after one year of work, and see that the nursing leadership and education during orientation and the first-year practice makes more difference to their safety and outcome.

Of course this is different than certification, in which there is data to support that certified nurses are safer and have better outcomes than non certified nurses,. What I would like to see his certification versus month certification correlated with years of experience to see how that data filters.

Don't even get me started on DNP....
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I'll PM you to keep from further derailing the thread.
 
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DA SWO said:
They do have a stunt man school.


University of Great Falls.......
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To further detail the thread... A few years ago they renamed it University of Providence. Go Argonauts! I wonder if they felt the words "Great Falls" was inappropriate for a Catholic institution? :-o

LL
 
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