David Goggins Wants to Be a PJ (Again)

[Johca]

... he completes the pipeline, goes to an instructor gig/training unit (literally what’s happening), and then has all the time in the world to go on Joe Rogan and talk about how being a SEAL was hard, but being an AF PJ was a lifelong dream and now he proud of that career field.

I don’t have a feeling either way. I’m occupying the sneaky third position where I just make fun of both sides for being retarded and shortsighted.

However, the official expected outcome is increasing accession numbers of people enlisting to be classified into certain entry level initial skills pipelines and lowering student attrition from these training pipelines. No matter how much of the training pipeline is adapted to accommodate special skills qualification gained from being a SEAL, it's still over a year of training he needs to successfully complete to qualify for award of the 3-skill level.

Further policy for award of an instructor prefix (T or K) and assignment to such positions is skill level commensurate with control and duty position assigned. Typically, this requires award of and holding a 5-skill level or higher. Thus, such utilization is going to require skills and mission qualification training after gaining award of 3-skill level. I suppose additional exception to policy approvals can be used to get around these inconveniences.

Also, the potential of Murphy's Law having things go wrong in the worst possible way during the next year or two or three of training required to implement this solution is high due to this individual's age and chronic disqualifying medical conditions.

Coincidentally every idea becoming a course of action (or a solution) since 1988 to increase number of candidates entering into training initial skills training pipelines and to reduce student attrition has been ineffective. The only result of importance is how much the course of action provides the hoped for expected solution.

I'm in the buy some popcorn and watch the circus act for the next several years state of mind.

 

[Kaldak]

The PJ community has bigger feelings about this than they’re equipped to handle. It’s pretty funny to watch.

There’s no world in which some of these guys can imagine that he completes the pipeline, goes to an instructor gig/training unit (literally what’s happening), and then has all the time in the world to go on Joe Rogan and talk about how being a SEAL was hard, but being an AF PJ was a lifelong dream and now he proud of that career field.

I don’t have a feeling either way. I’m occupying the sneaky third position where I just make fun of both sides for being retarded and shortsighted.

Wait... the third postion? There is something the populace doesn't see? Both sides are idiots? This has never happened before! Shocked I say!

 

[Cookie_]

There’s no world in which some of these guys can imagine that he completes the pipeline, goes to an instructor gig/training unit (literally what’s happening)

Makes sense. I'm pretty sure he was an instructor for a good while after he became non-deployable.

I don’t have a feeling either way. I’m occupying the sneaky third position where I just make fun of both sides for being retarded and shortsighted.

 

[Devildoc]

However, the official expected outcome is increasing accession numbers of people enlisting to be classified into certain entry level initial skills pipelines and lowering student attrition from these training pipelines.
Coincidentally every idea becoming a course of action (or a solution) since 1988 to increase number of candidates entering into training initial skills training pipelines and to reduce student attrition has been ineffective. The only result of importance is how much the course of action provides the hoped for expected solution.

Every SOF unit has the same problem regarding attrition and looking for ways to decrease it. A lot of pre-pipeline programs have worked to boost the numbers of dudes going in but very few have made any appreciable dent in the outcome of number of graduates.

Interestingly this isn't just a problem for SOF or even the military. Even in my community we see folks who slip through admission criteria for one reason or another; some do fine, but most do not.

I had lunch a couple days ago with a former PJ-now CRO, and he had some, um, 'animated' opinions. I am sure that for whatever 'we' (non-community dudes) think or feel, it rightfully pales in comparison to what the community thinks or feels.

 

[Blizzard]

Ruh roh, Shaggy. I'm shocked. Trouble in paradise reportedly, so soon?...

Not attending pre-selection to go "house hunting" is not gonna win any hearts and minds.

And away we go...

 

[TLDR20]

Every SOF unit has the same problem regarding attrition and looking for ways to decrease it. A lot of pre-pipeline programs have worked to boost the numbers of dudes going in but very few have made any appreciable dent in the outcome of number of graduates.

Interestingly this isn't just a problem for SOF or even the military. Even in my community we see folks who slip through admission criteria for one reason or another; some do fine, but most do not.

I had lunch a couple days ago with a former PJ-now CRO, and he had some, um, 'animated' opinions. I am sure that for whatever 'we' (non-community dudes) think or feel, it rightfully pales in comparison to what the community thinks or feels.

The issue is in some ways the pre selection prep courses become harder than selection see: SOPC circa 2002-2006, pre scuba always….

 

[Ooh-Rah]

So assuming he does not succeed, is he then contracted to the Air Force and assigned somewhere at the “needs of the Air Force”?

 

[policemedic]

I know I’m coming into this late but I’m confused. When did we start allowing people who are nondeployable to enlist? If he’s still not deployable, why allow him to enlist into a combat AFSC? If the intention is to send him to a schoolhouse as an instructor, how much respect would he receive with no operational time as a PJ (I’m guessing less than zero).

I don’t know the guy, and don’t really have an opinion on him other than I respect his fitness journey. I’m interested in the AFSOC rationale.

So many questions….

 

[Kaldak]

Good point!

When did we start allowing people who are nondeployable to enlist?

Can I and my wheelchair sign-up now? @amlove21 I need your professional advice on this one!

 

[Topkick]

Good point!



Can I and my wheelchair sign-up now? @amlove21 I need your professional advice on this one!

 

[Devildoc]

The issue is in some ways the pre selection prep courses become harder than selection see: SOPC circa 2002-2006, pre scuba always….

I think the pre-selection prep should be harder; then when you get to A&S or whatever school you can forget the physical and concentrate on the mental.

I know I’m coming into this late but I’m confused. When did we start allowing people who are nondeployable to enlist? If he’s still not deployable, why allow him to enlist into a combat AFSC? If the intention is to send him to a schoolhouse as an instructor, how much respect would he receive with no operational time as a PJ (I’m guessing less than zero).

I don’t know the guy, and don’t really have an opinion on him other than I respect his fitness journey. I’m interested in the AFSOC rationale.

So many questions….

I definitely think the AF did a big-ass risk/benefit analysis and must be thinking his value, even if non-deployable, is worth having him. Only so many ways I can intellectually reconcile this stuff in my mind.

 

[AWP]

This is a PR stunt. Dude has 69.420 waivers just to show up and will be a 53YO 3 Level of minimal operational value.

I genuinely don't wish him ill, I'm not a hater who wants to see him fail. The process is the process and I'm sure the training cadre will hold him to the standard so long long as the GO's who set up this exercise allow them to hold him to a standard.

We should see it for what it is: a PR stunt orchestrated by GOs.

 

[Devildoc]

This is a PR stunt. Dude has 69.420 waivers just to show up and will be a 53YO 3 Level of minimal operational value.

I genuinely don't wish him ill, I'm not a hater who wants to see him fail. The process is the process and I'm sure the training cadre will hold him to the standard so long long as the GO's who set up this exercise allow them to hold him to a standard.

We should see it for what it is: a PR stunt orchestrated by GOs.

Did you see Aaron's video? There is a lot of risk for the AF to take this on. I buy it's a PR stunt; it's the only thing that makes sense because I cannot see him being an operational junior PJ at 53 or 54. But if he fails for any reason, he can influence a lot of people by talking shit on SM about how he got the shaft or biased instructors or whatever bullshit he wants to say. Only if he makes it will it be a win-win and a PR boon for the Air Force.

 

[AWP]

Only if he makes it will it be a win-win and a PR boon for the Air Force.

I've never said the AF was smart...

 

[Devildoc]

I've never said the AF was smart...

The Navy enters the chat....

 

[TLDR20]

I think the pre-selection prep should be harder; then when you get to A&S or whatever school you can forget the physical and concentrate on the mental.

I disagree. And so does the Army. The Army and SWCS toned back SOPC because it had become the selection event without the safeguards and objectivity of SFAS. Selection is high visibility, SOPC was sadism with no oversight. Pre BUDS has never been a selection event because that isn’t the point. These courses should condition people so their bodies don’t break down, but should not cause massive voluntary attrition. The attrition should come from the courses designed for it. When courses exceed the point it alters both the demographics of those who pass, and takes away the point of the selection. Something like 90% of 18X’s we’re getting selected at one point because SOPC was so hard that if you made it through you were basically guaranteed to get selected. Conditioning an off the street person to attend a rigorous selection course should give them a body capable of not sustaining life altering injury or disability, but it should not be a selection event in itself.

 

[Devildoc]

I disagree. And so does the Army. The Army and SWCS toned back SOPC because it had become the selection event without the safeguards and objectivity of SFAS. Selection is high visibility, SOPC was sadism with no oversight. Pre BUDS has never been a selection event because that isn’t the point. These courses should condition people so their bodies don’t break down, but should not cause massive voluntary attrition. The attrition should come from the courses designed for it. When courses exceed the point it alters both the demographics of those who pass, and takes away the point of the selection. Something like 90% of 18X’s we’re getting selected at one point because SOPC was so hard that if you made it through you were basically guaranteed to get selected. Conditioning an off the street person to attend a rigorous selection course should give them a body capable of not sustaining life altering injury or disability, but it should not be a selection event in itself.

I think you misunderstand (or maybe I misstated in my pre-caffeinated state). Pre-A&S or pre-course 'courses' should prepare the body not for failure or attrition, that's not the objective; but rather prepare the body to the point that you can easily go beyond minimums so when you do make the course or A&S you have gas in the tank and don't waste energy on making miminums. In that way, they should be harder.

 

[amlove21]

I know I’m coming into this late but I’m confused. When did we start allowing people who are nondeployable to enlist? If he’s still not deployable, why allow him to enlist into a combat AFSC? If the intention is to send him to a schoolhouse as an instructor, how much respect would he receive with no operational time as a PJ (I’m guessing less than zero).

I don’t know the guy, and don’t really have an opinion on him other than I respect his fitness journey. I’m interested in the AFSOC rationale.

So many questions….

Yeah, so a couple of misconceptions in there (which is driving the drama). If I am reading the tea leaves, he is going to the training unit on the books- I don't think there is any appetite to get him qualified as an instructor. It's more of a manning thing, but we can put dudes at units and massage the billet for what they actually do.

Non-deployable- yeah, got it, but if the plan is not to deploy him, then he falls into the bucket with like 20% of the career field that sits as "non-deployable" at any given time. Injuries, both mental health and bodily, keep dudes from deploying right now. I have more than one close friend that have been non deployable since their injuries and go to the Scout gig (exactly where Goggins fits).

It's hard for outsiders (and impossible for the dudes in the community) to wrap their heads around, but if you start from the premise- and this is my hypothetical assumption here because AF has been super tight-lipped about it- then it makes sense.

What if...

The AF (AFSOC) is doing this solely as a recruiting tool/PA move. They let him try, throw him in a billet at a training unit (if he makes it) with no intention of deploying, upgrading, doing the job, and only want to make him go to every dog and pony and the juice (for this considerable squeeze) is 10M eyeballs out of the box and everyone caring about AFSOC, good, bad, or indifferent?

Cause, uh... we are talking about it right? Online "experts" suddenly know age requirements, physical requirements, medical requirements, upgrade requirements, job duties... for Pararescue.

Now, I suppose there is a conversaton to be had about "is this good for the community"... but no one can explain what "good" or "bad" means for the "community". And since they can't even describe terms outside of "it makes me feel bad and I wore that hat so I am an expert and you have to make me feel better", we can't even have the talk.

 

[amlove21]

Did you see Aaron's video? There is a lot of risk for the AF to take this on. I buy it's a PR stunt; it's the only thing that makes sense because I cannot see him being an operational junior PJ at 53 or 54. But if he fails for any reason, he can influence a lot of people by talking shit on SM about how he got the shaft or biased instructors or whatever bullshit he wants to say. Only if he makes it will it be a win-win and a PR boon for the Air Force.

Only additon I would make... it is a truism that exclusivity drives demand.

If he fails, and let's say he does talk shit... the AF gets to go, "See? Harder than SEALs, he was vetted and cant make it through. Want to do something even David Goggins can't? Hit up a recruiter and try."

Goggins himself has the greatest real amount of risk on this. The AF does sorta (see earlier comment on "bad for the community"), but that's the main reason there is a gag order in place for socials and on the folks down in SA.

If they remain completely neutral and just let idiots fight in the comments and on chat boards, they can frame it however they want. If you don't take a side early you have more options late.

Sincerely, a guy arguing in the comments and on chat boards.

 

[Devildoc]

Only additon I would make... it is a truism that exclusivity drives demand.

If he fails, and let's say he does talk shit... the AF gets to go, "See? Harder than SEALs, he was vetted and cant make it through. Want to do something even David Goggins can't? Hit up a recruiter and try."

Goggins himself has the greatest real amount of risk on this. The AF does sorta (see earlier comment on "bad for the community"), but that's the main reason there is a gag order in place for socials and on the folks down in SA.

If they remain completely neutral and just let idiots fight in the comments and on chat boards, they can frame it however they want. If you don't take a side early you have more options late.

Sincerely, a guy arguing in the comments and on chat boards.

To the bolded/italicized, that's some serious reverse Uno shit. I dig it. It kinda sorta reminds me of my favorite recruiter pitch ever, in high school, circa 1986, all the recruiters are there doing their spiel...you know, college money, travel, learn a skill, etc. The Marine recruiter walks up to the stage with a pair of combat boots, puts them on the stage, and simply says, "if you think you are man or woman enough to fill those boots, come see me." Guess who had the biggest line?

I am not sure if Goggins has that much risk. If he shits the bed he can also simply say "I'm 51, my knees are jacked, I gave it a shot." Or he can body slam the AF.

I had lunch with your friend last weekend. He had some, um, sporty comments. Easy for me to remain neutral as it doesn't impact me. As an old man myself I am interested in seeing how he does, knowing he skews the curve because he is a fitness beast.