Do we really need MARSOC?

Honestly, I think there should be a separate US Special Operations it's own branch.

They can identify those that are wired to be a QP and those that are wired for more of a DA role and then set everyone up for success...
 
I see MARSOC as a natural evolution for SOF, and I don't think it's a threat to SF's existence. I don't understand that MARSOC-bashing that's been taking place over the last couple of months. If blame is to be assessed and fingers pointed, shouldn't SOCOM be where the ire is directed, and not the Marines?

It makes sense to me to have a Marine SOF organization, and to apply this new capability against the SOF problem sets that we are having the most difficulty with at the moment, which in my opinion are FID and UW/surrogate ops. Furthermore (again in my opinion), SF's legacy and future are secure within the US military- DoD validated that opinion by growing the Group MTOEs to reflect, among other things, two additional battalions (the GSB and an SF battalion per group- if I remember correctly). There will always be a need for SF's core competencies, but the GWOT demonstrated they cannot be the "sole provider" for those competencies.

If we accept the validity of the four SOF Truths:
- Humans are more important than Hardware.
- Quality is better than Quantity.
- Special Operations Forces cannot be mass produced.
- Competent Special Operations Forces cannot be created after emergencies occur.

Then the creation of MARSOC and it's adoption of missions closely associated with SF's legacy missions meets at least two of the four- "SOF cannot be mass produced," which is what you run the risk of doing by just "making more SF," and "competent SOF cannot be created after emergencies occur," which is what is happening now because SF does not have enough forces to meet the demand for SF's skill set.

As far as MARSOC sending it's SOF back into "big Corps" after a stint in MARSOC, isn't that what SF did back in the day, before they learned better and became their own branch?

Instead of resisting MARSOC, which at this point is an exercise in futility, SF should embrace MARSOC and offer to train their operators up; among other things, that would re-enforce SF's position at the top of the FID/UW hierarchy, allow SF to influence the training, build closer relations with their newest SOF partner, and keep an eye on what MARSOC was up to.

For every general officer with SF experience who says that SF should remain the same, there is probably at least one who says it needs to evolve... MARSOC's not going away gentlemen, we can cast stones at them or we can embrace and enable them.
 
Honestly, I think there should be a separate US Special Operations it's own branch.

They can identify those that are wired to be a QP and those that are wired for more of a DA role and then set everyone up for success...

The costs in creating a "Sixth Service" are prohibitive. The best situation is what USSOCOM currently has, which is as a Unified Command with Service-Like capabilities.

Beyond that, just about every Service (except the Marines) have at least enlisted special operators in their own branch/MOS/NEC...
 
I see MARSOC as a natural evolution for SOF, and I don't think it's a threat to SF's existence. I don't understand that MARSOC-bashing that's been taking place over the last couple of months. If blame is to be assessed and fingers pointed, shouldn't SOCOM be where the ire is directed, and not the Marines?

It makes sense to me to have a Marine SOF organization, and to apply this new capability against the SOF problem sets that we are having the most difficulty with at the moment, which in my opinion are FID and UW/surrogate ops. Furthermore (again in my opinion), SF's legacy and future are secure within the US military- DoD validated that opinion by growing the Group MTOEs to reflect, among other things, two additional battalions (the GSB and an SF battalion per group- if I remember correctly). There will always be a need for SF's core competencies, but the GWOT demonstrated they cannot be the "sole provider" for those competencies.

If we accept the validity of the four SOF Truths:
- Humans are more important than Hardware.
- Quality is better than Quantity.
- Special Operations Forces cannot be mass produced.
- Competent Special Operations Forces cannot be created after emergencies occur.

Then the creation of MARSOC and it's adoption of missions closely associated with SF's legacy missions meets at least two of the four- "SOF cannot be mass produced," which is what you run the risk of doing by just "making more SF," and "competent SOF cannot be created after emergencies occur," which is what is happening now because SF does not have enough forces to meet the demand for SF's skill set.

As far as MARSOC sending it's SOF back into "big Corps" after a stint in MARSOC, isn't that what SF did back in the day, before they learned better and became their own branch?

Instead of resisting MARSOC, which at this point is an exercise in futility, SF should embrace MARSOC and offer to train their operators up; among other things, that would re-enforce SF's position at the top of the FID/UW hierarchy, allow SF to influence the training, build closer relations with their newest SOF partner, and keep an eye on what MARSOC was up to.

For every general officer with SF experience who says that SF should remain the same, there is probably at least one who says it needs to evolve... MARSOC's not going away gentlemen, we can cast stones at them or we can embrace and enable them.
Well said!

Farang
 
I see MARSOC as a natural evolution for SOF, and I don't think it's a threat to SF's existence. I don't understand that MARSOC-bashing that's been taking place over the last couple of months. If blame is to be assessed and fingers pointed, shouldn't SOCOM be where the ire is directed, and not the Marines?

It makes sense to me to have a Marine SOF organization, and to apply this new capability against the SOF problem sets that we are having the most difficulty with at the moment, which in my opinion are FID and UW/surrogate ops. Furthermore (again in my opinion), SF's legacy and future are secure within the US military- DoD validated that opinion by growing the Group MTOEs to reflect, among other things, two additional battalions (the GSB and an SF battalion per group- if I remember correctly). There will always be a need for SF's core competencies, but the GWOT demonstrated they cannot be the "sole provider" for those competencies.
Stipulate that i agree with every i didn't pull from Marauder's piece, cited above.

Here's where I believe Marauder incorrect as regards the finger pointing. The Marines, as a Service, must yield endstrength to USSOCOM. So, as much as they may want USMC to contribute, ultimately USSOCOM gets what it gets.

At issue are a couple of points here that, if ignored, make the case that Marines are only interested in "the cool stuff".
(1) No part of Marine Civil Affairs is moving to MARSOC, even though CA is a SOF mission and still falls under USSOCOM for Joint Proponency.
(2) Unless the models have drastically changed from what I last saw, there is no cogent JSOTF capability in any MARSOC unit. An SF Group can do it (now) only after significant augmentation, and despite the desires of at least two T-SOCs, an SF Battalion just doesn't have the manpower to pull it off.

This goes to, what some call, "tooth-to-tail" ratio. In both these cases, MARSOC either chose not to, just won't, man, train, and equip the full slew of SOF capabilities, even though the Service has it within their power to do so. So, Army SOF gets stuck with 100% of the mission requirement, and now a new SOF Service Component to account for when organizing in either case. MARSOC, as configured now, does not provide any relief.**

At a glance, it appears that the only missions USMC (and MARSOC) are interested in for MARSOC are DA/SR missions and FID (if, in fact, they are retaining that mission). They don't appear interested in forming the larger deployed HQ's/C2 functions necessary to Plan, Direct, Monitor, and Assess at the operational level. And they aren't moving any of their CA units (currently all in the USMC Reserves) to support SOF CA requirements.

Given the highly touted, if grossly misnamed, "MEU-SOC" (about which they are quite fond), there's no reason why a budding MARSOC doesn't have this as a core capability.

So, given that, why would MARSOC think there'd be no objection from Special Forces to their delving into UW? From a roles and mission standpoint, there's plenty of unique, enabling capabilities a "MARSOC" could bring to the SOF milieu without also trying to take on the very complicated business of UW.

So, I can see the intellectual vice emotional, argument against MARSOC as it currently is, or at least one where the USMC is required to fork over a bit more manpower to provide true balance. But the locus for a solution resides in Quantico...not Tampa.

**<NAVSPECWAR makes the same mistake. I was in a brief recently where they "discovered" that their tooth-to-tail ratio is Point 5 to one. SF is about 7 to 1 by comparison. NAVSPECWAR is making a play to borrow capabilities from Naval Expeditionary Combat Command (NECC) to fill those gaps. (Of course, these would be funded under Service (P-2) vice SOF (P-11) auspices.)>
 
Great post, SigO. Everyone forgets the support slices.

Roger. I didn't even get to the Comms or Log parts... :)

Happens every where, doesn't matter where you're from. ;)

That was very insightful, I'd be very interested to hear the finer points on the Comms and Log situ. I hope it's a learning curve that is being watched closely up here by those in charge of building our new "machine".
 
Happens every where, doesn't matter where you're from. ;)

That was very insightful, I'd be very interested to hear the finer points on the Comms and Log situ. I hope it's a learning curve that is being watched closely up here by those in charge of building our new "machine".

Short answer: Probably not.

Again, if i'm wrong on this, correct me.

But the Comms and Log formations in the org charts I saw were paltry and certainly did not enable an organization capable of operating as a JSOTF/Operatlonal Level deployed HQs.

One comms Platoon for the whole command? :doh:

Don't have the specifics on the Log side, but I doubt it could support a Battalion Landing Team, much less a robust HQs.

Tooth to tail....not a joke.
 
I don't have a clue what MARSOC's support slices look like so I won't bash them. I can say that even an SF BN needs outside help, maybe that has changed a little though.

But SigO makes a great point about standing up a JSOTF. Right now only the Army can do it with organic assets. Other branches would need to beg and borrow pieces. Yes, the "J" is for "Joint" but you still need a core group of servicemembers to form that JSOTF unless you want to rely upon 11th hour augmentees. And if you strip SOF veterans from Unit X or Y then what happens when that unit deploys? You just robbed Peter to pay Paul. A vicious cycle has begun.

I would hope if we as a nation are truly serious about Joint SOF capabilities we would start to integrate members from other services into the TSOCs and assign them there. At least that would start to provide a pool of Joint manpower for your deployed JSOTFs.

Honestly, given the optempo of Army SF Groups/ BNs I'm surprised that the Army isn't asking for more assistance from the other services and trying to drive them to plus up their support/ HQ functions.
 
I would hope if we as a nation are truly serious about Joint SOF capabilities we would start to integrate members from other services into the TSOCs and assign them there. At least that would start to provide a pool of Joint manpower for your deployed JSOTFs.

Honestly, given the optempo of Army SF Groups/ BNs I'm surprised that the Army isn't asking for more assistance from the other services and trying to drive them to plus up their support/ HQ functions.

This is why i'm surprised that, instead of bringing in a new full SF Group, they instead opted to add only battalions.

The help's been asked for. I haven't seen a SEAL run JSOTF yet. The 160th won't. The jury's out on whether 75RR will. Nothing heard from AFSOC. So, MARSOC, can you understand why there might be some angst on this question?
 
One comms Platoon for the whole command? :doh:

There is more than one comm platoon in MARSOC. Each MSOB has their own and there's at least one more in the MSOSG. Not that they can provide high-level support; as I understand it they are very similar in capability to other MC units. The MSOSG also provides the log support for the rest of MARSOC.

Did SOCOM task MARSOC with providing a JSOTF capability? Not being a smart ass, I honestly don't know. But I would imagine MARSOC was set up with those capabilities they were tasked to provide.
 
But I would imagine MARSOC was set up with those capabilities they were tasked to provide.

Absolutely, and they were tasked by SOCOM to do it. That just tells you from a higher up standpoint that MARSOC isn't just doing what it is doing for shits and giggles.
 
Absolutely, and they were tasked by SOCOM to do it. That just tells you from a higher up standpoint that MARSOC isn't just doing what it is doing for shits and giggles.

Okay, I'm confused. Are you saying they were tasked to provide a JSOTF capability and didn't do so?
 
Okay, I'm confused. Are you saying they were tasked to provide a JSOTF capability and didn't do so?


No, I'm saying they were specifically tasked by the special operations command gods, and weren't just sua sponte'ing it (I was agreeing with you).
 
There is more than one comm platoon in MARSOC. Each MSOB has their own and there's at least one more in the MSOSG. Not that they can provide high-level support; as I understand it they are very similar in capability to other MC units. The MSOSG also provides the log support for the rest of MARSOC.

Did SOCOM task MARSOC with providing a JSOTF capability? Not being a smart ass, I honestly don't know. But I would imagine MARSOC was set up with those capabilities they were tasked to provide.

Not doubting you. I'd like to see what MARSOC says a Comm Platoon is capable of doing before saying whether what you say refutes or ratifies my point.

I fear we can't safely answer that question in the forum...
 
Not doubting you. I'd like to see what MARSOC says a Comm Platoon is capable of doing before saying whether what you say refutes or ratifies my point.

I fear we can't safely answer that question in the forum...

I'm not trying to refute or ratify your point. I'm pretty sure a comm platoon in MARSOC is not capable of the same things the 112th is capable of doing.

I'm just stating there is more than one comm platoon in MARSOC.
 
I'm not trying to refute or ratify your point. I'm pretty sure a comm platoon in MARSOC is not capable of the same things the 112th is capable of doing.

I'm just stating there is more than one comm platoon in MARSOC.

Not my intent, nor an apt comparison. The SF Groups and Battalions each have organic comms (i.e. not assigned to 112th) capable of supporting a TF headquarters. If the comm platoon(s) also possess similar capabilities then it would appear to refute my point (and I'd be glad to defer).
 
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