When did this happen? As late as '01 we were still pulling in assets from the 112th and augmentees from GSC just to do a JRTC rotation. Is this something the GWOT has changed? I'd hope so, I'm just curious about the timeline.
Do we really need MARSOC?
- Thread starter Trip_Wire
- Start date
When did this happen? As late as '01 we were still pulling in assets from the 112th and augmentees from GSC just to do a JRTC rotation. Is this something the GWOT has changed? I'd hope so, I'm just curious about the timeline.
S
Simmerin' SigO
Guest
Unless i'm misinformed...Groups and Battalions should now be fielding SDN Medium and Heavy
112th maystill be augmenting....but that's because Joint requirements are pretty robust
S
Simmerin' SigO
Guest
Ah, gotcha. Thank you for the update. Jesus...our Army is evolving during the GWOT? Who woulda' thunk it?
Thank you indulging me in the deviation to the thread. Back to the show.
SOCOM is..can't speak for the whole Army or DOD. (SOF is inherently joint, as you know).
"How will the MARSOC benefit the United States? It will be some time before the Marines have totally disciplined their aggressive tendencies, their quick trigger-fingers – those Lance Corporals, you know – but what they lack in subtlety, they make up for in stubbornness."
This is a completely unprofessional statement. I can understand your arguement about expanding SF, and just letting marsoc do the DA/SR, but as a marine, we can accomplish whatever task is given. There is no reason to stereotype marines. I can go into the difference of a regular infantry marine, and a regular army grunt, but whats the point. When we send marines to ranger school, our attrition rate isnt nearly as high... but lets not get off track. I know awesome marines who aced marsoc assessment and selection, but didnt have the personality or qualities that make up the mission of FID and UW. We arent just throwing any marine into MARSOC.
This is a completely unprofessional statement. I can understand your arguement about expanding SF, and just letting marsoc do the DA/SR, but as a marine, we can accomplish whatever task is given. There is no reason to stereotype marines. I can go into the difference of a regular infantry marine, and a regular army grunt, but whats the point. When we send marines to ranger school, our attrition rate isnt nearly as high... but lets not get off track. I know awesome marines who aced marsoc assessment and selection, but didnt have the personality or qualities that make up the mission of FID and UW. We arent just throwing any marine into MARSOC.
How about you stay in your lane high-speed.
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rao22:
The discussion isnt about comparing grunts to grunts or the number of Ranger School candidates the Marines send to RTB every year and how well the small handful stack up against the hundreds of others. It is however about MARSOC and the things that need to change to bring them to where they want themselves to be as well as where SOCOM wants them to be.
Your statement, "as a Marine, we can accomplish whatever task is given, is precisely the type of thinking that is inhibiting MARSOC, at a couple levels, in their tasking.
Despite popular belief not all Marines were created equal. Until now those Marines who thought kinetic solutions werent always the best COA came to SF where its a thinking man's game. There is plenty MARSOC can learn from SF, but they have to open not just their ears, but their minds to doing things differently than the Marine Corps conducts business...
Crip
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i agree with you 100% as well, but the point everyone is failing to realize is that they are doing business different than "mother marine corps." look, im not trying to say one is better than the other, just got offended with the quote of "typical lance corporal with an itchy trigger finger", which isnt the case at all. why i brought up other shit, who knows. you guys have been doin the sf mission for quite some time, i highly doubt the marine corps is going to come in and not lend you their ears.
While I am not in the military or a Marine, as someone that's gone off to Marine OCS and am familiar with Marine Corps customs, courtesies, and traditions I thought it was acceptable to bring up the issue of capitalizing Marine. I just updated that info in my profile.
Now rao can't capitalize "I" or any word after a period
Sorry but lazy grammar is annoying and makes it harder to read.
Don't know if we need them so much as they're fun to watch.
It's kinda/sorta like watching every other SOF unit's learning curve, just with one finger on the fast forward button because they're co-located with SF guys alot over here and have the benefit of cross-fertilization and lessons learned.
Right now they're kinda going through the same crap we went through back when. For instance, no career management field. A guy makes E7 in MARSOC. Then they send him back to the fleet. Now he's supposed to be a platoon sergeant but personnel doesn't know what to do with him because they don't have any idea about equivalency, like that last year this guy was training and leading a platoon of hajjis in combat. So he gets fucked over for career advancing positions and promotions 'cause now, as far as they're concerned, he's neither fish nor fowl nor good red meat.
This situation will not correct itself until MARSOC alumni get into positions of higher authority and that can take years.
But, like I said, if nothing else, they're fun to watch.
It's kinda/sorta like watching every other SOF unit's learning curve, just with one finger on the fast forward button because they're co-located with SF guys alot over here and have the benefit of cross-fertilization and lessons learned.
Right now they're kinda going through the same crap we went through back when. For instance, no career management field. A guy makes E7 in MARSOC. Then they send him back to the fleet. Now he's supposed to be a platoon sergeant but personnel doesn't know what to do with him because they don't have any idea about equivalency, like that last year this guy was training and leading a platoon of hajjis in combat. So he gets fucked over for career advancing positions and promotions 'cause now, as far as they're concerned, he's neither fish nor fowl nor good red meat.
This situation will not correct itself until MARSOC alumni get into positions of higher authority and that can take years.
But, like I said, if nothing else, they're fun to watch.
One of the biggest problems seems to be that some MARSOC unit leaders are trying to run their unit like a regular Marine unit, because "There are no special Marine's only Marines who do special jobs". Which of course is bullshit, but many of the leaders still believe it. So instead of focusing on the mission at hand you have leaders running around worrying about Marines having high and tights, uniform inspections, and field day. Never mind if that Marine can flawlessly perform his job. Its hard to believe but there are leaders who will put haircuts above job performance and knowledge.
To this day it blows my mind how the Marine Corps will take a SNCO or officer, who doesn’t even have a combat MOS background and put him as the 1stSgt, SgtMaj, Plt Cmd, or Company Commander of a Recon unit, and at least in the past in charge of a MARSOC unit.
Hell there are Officers who don't even go through BRC that are operating as Plt Cmd's, they don't even have the understanding of their Marines capabilities but they're expected to train them, and employ them. Oh but there quick to go to jump school, dive, or freefall. In the process taking a seat away from an 0321 who actually needs those schools, and for the most part no one corrects this.
Anyway, I think until the Marine Corps is ready to admit that not every Marine and/or unit is the same, there is no one size fits all solution, and being a SNCO or Officer does not make you an expert on all things Marine Corps MARSOC will have problems.
To this day it blows my mind how the Marine Corps will take a SNCO or officer, who doesn’t even have a combat MOS background and put him as the 1stSgt, SgtMaj, Plt Cmd, or Company Commander of a Recon unit, and at least in the past in charge of a MARSOC unit.
Hell there are Officers who don't even go through BRC that are operating as Plt Cmd's, they don't even have the understanding of their Marines capabilities but they're expected to train them, and employ them. Oh but there quick to go to jump school, dive, or freefall. In the process taking a seat away from an 0321 who actually needs those schools, and for the most part no one corrects this.
Anyway, I think until the Marine Corps is ready to admit that not every Marine and/or unit is the same, there is no one size fits all solution, and being a SNCO or Officer does not make you an expert on all things Marine Corps MARSOC will have problems.
rao22:
I am generally not the grammar police but you need to start using it properly. Your written exchanges here and elsewhere speak volumes for who you are. If you want people to take you seriously then take your self seriously and pay a lil more attention to detail.
Capitalizing where appropriate would be a great start. ;)
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7point62
Guest
Everybody wanted a piece of the SOCOM pie during Rumsfeld's tenure. I get the feeling some of the service chiefs felt they might get left behind in the GWOT...hence the Navy's plans for a riverine naval infantry unit and the Marines push into special operations.
For decades it's been axiomatic in the Corps that there was no need for an elite force within an elite force. That's why, sadly I think, the Raider & Parachute Battalions were absorbed into the MARDIVs after only a few years of operation. This step into MARSOC has been a big one.
It's also natural for people who have been in the business for years to be highly critical of any FNGs. Criticism is good. It will help MARSOC work out the bugs.
Do we need MARSOC? I think we need all the shooters and killers we can get. And the more proficient they are, the more killing we can do.
For decades it's been axiomatic in the Corps that there was no need for an elite force within an elite force. That's why, sadly I think, the Raider & Parachute Battalions were absorbed into the MARDIVs after only a few years of operation. This step into MARSOC has been a big one.
It's also natural for people who have been in the business for years to be highly critical of any FNGs. Criticism is good. It will help MARSOC work out the bugs.
Do we need MARSOC? I think we need all the shooters and killers we can get. And the more proficient they are, the more killing we can do.
If only that were the job. You can teach any monkey to dominate a room and to pull a trigger. The question is can you teach a Marine to teach that monkey? Many valid points here.
I've had alot of quality experiences with Marine infantry and a couple disastrous and lethal ones. I believe the success of MARSOC not only depends on how the Men's Department handles them, but also on the quality and mallaebility of the Marine placed in MARSOC. So far, my sources in the field tell me they've got alot of learning to do on JCET's (or whatever the Marines are calling them), mostly for the reasons Hitman brought up.
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7point62
Guest
Do you think the Marines pushed too fast to get a unit under SOCOM? (Fear of getting left behind?) That was my thinking a few years ago when this thing started getting revved up.
As far as high & tights and regimental bullsh*t taking precedent over skill and tradecraft, I agree. Old habits die hard. I did not know that non-combat MOSs were being placed in command slots. That's pretty shocking to me.
I understand it involves more than pulling a trigger. I still think its good to have as many highly-trained individuals as we can get...and I'm sorry to hear you've had bad and lethal experiences with Marine infantry.
As far as high & tights and regimental bullsh*t taking precedent over skill and tradecraft, I agree. Old habits die hard. I did not know that non-combat MOSs were being placed in command slots. That's pretty shocking to me.
I understand it involves more than pulling a trigger. I still think its good to have as many highly-trained individuals as we can get...and I'm sorry to hear you've had bad and lethal experiences with Marine infantry.
I will buy that one...good catch. We are all prone to missing a word from time to time.
Glad to see you caught onto the spirit of the post...
Crip
B
Boondocksaint375
Guest
I think it took too long for them to get into SOCOM. Think about what branches had already been under SOCOM ;). Also to add, they already had SOF (i.e. FR). However, SOCOM specifically altered their mission and gave them an FID portion. So the Marine Corps really isn't to blame for anything. I'm sure it'll work out for the best in the months/years to come.
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