Drone pilots to get medals?
- Thread starter Brill
- Start date
Semi-agree.
Make Campaign medal worth a point or two.
That way deployers get a leg up on the Beltway Banditos.
pardus
Verified Military
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2006
- Messages
- 10,534
I Agree 100%
A few point of clarifications pertinent to the RPA pilots and enlisted sensor operators to get medals.
1. As far as the long range permanently CONUS duty position based types (example 11th Reconnaissance Squadron (RS), Creech AFB NV), they have always been eligible for the Aerial Achievement Medal and some of these pilots and systems operators have been awarded the medal for the required number of sustained operational flight sorties.
2. There is a difference of being physically in a potential “all” combat risks environment of being in a manned/crewed aircraft flying through combat designated air space and being a remote pilot and sensor operator crewmember 10,000 miles away from the active ground combat zone and designated combat air space. This is the demarcation preventing the award of the combat medals (AF Combat Action Medal, Purple Heart, Bronze Star Medal, Silver Star, Air Force Cross and Medal of Honor). It is the no exposure to physical dangers necessitating courage, bravery, and voluntary risk of life preventing award of medal having Airman’s/Soldiers Medal, Air Medal, Distinguished Flying Cross precedence of recognition and reverence.
3. What members and supporters of the RPA pilots and sensor operators are politically campaigning and public sympathy marketing for is a proposal for a new warfare medal having prestige and precedence between the Airmen’s Medal (AF equivalent to the Soldier’s Medal) and the Distinguished Flying Cross is needed for “exceptional conduct” for a specific combat support capability not exposed to physical dangers of combat.
Combat medals having Bronze Star, Airmen’s Medal and Distinguished Flying Cross precedence are not “conduct medals”. If for valor there is expectation of courage and bravery involving risk of life (Airman’s Medal requires voluntary risk of life). If for achievement (Distinguished Flying Cross eligibility is heroism or achievement) the quality or level of achievement expected is “must be entirely distinctive, involving operations that are not routine. Not awarded for sustained operational activities and flights.” Consequently the proposals must accurately and truthfully manned and unmanned exposure to “all” the combat risk are equal in frequency, duration and potential possibility and probability for risk of life.
You all can read the following linked to documents to arrive at your own judgments of whether any published article or suggested course of action has accurately and truthfully compared the combat risk exposure.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/in-the-loop/post/drone-pilots-to-get-medals/2012/07/09/gJQAF2PhYW_blog.html
“The Pentagon is considering awarding a Distinguished Warfare Medal to drone pilots who work on military bases often far removed from the battlefield.” And “The proposed medal would rank between the Distinguished Flying Cross and the Soldier’s Medal for exceptional conduct outside a combat zone. “
http://timemilitary.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/pages-from-aspj-may-jun-2012.pdf
“I do not believe that RPA operators are in less danger than their manned counterparts. In fact, I assert that it may well be the other way around.” ; “In other words, if individuals immediately cue, fire, or guide weapons or if they are directly entrusted with the lives of Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, or Marines going into harm’s way, then they are in combat.”; “By treating combat rather than prestige as sacred, we eliminate this contradiction and help these future leaders reconcile themselves to this new type of combat.” (a significant rewrite of being in combat and acting with bravery, courage and putting life at risk-the president is a combat veteran- and consequently get VA disability for service connected PTSD, significant implications with this reasoning).
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquery/?&sid=cp112c6QGn&r_n=hr479.112&dbname=cp112&&sel=TOC_579916&
“House Report 112-479 - NATIONAL DEFENSE AUTHORIZATION ACT FOR FISCAL YEAR 2013, ….”RECOGNITION FOR REMOTELY PILOTED AIRCRAFT PILOTS.
The Committee recognizes the important contributions remotely piloted aircraft (RPA) pilots have made in the theaters of operation. RPA pilots are crucial to missions overseas, flying some of the military's important weapons systems such as the MQ-1 and MQ-9. Their efforts have led to the collection of important intelligence by carrying out missions that would otherwise be too dangerous for manned aircraft. Their role in supporting the war fighters with precision fire support and high endurance surveillance is invaluable. Since the deployment of remotely piloted aircrafts into combat zones, they have proven to be a crucial component in the War on Terror. RPA pilots have supported their fellow war fighters in hazardous situations, both in the conduct of day-to-day activities, as well as special operations. The RPA mission has allowed service members to better execute their military missions, and has aided in the capturing or killing of many high value targets. The committee encourages the Secretaries of the military departments to properly recognize these pilots for their contributions and accomplishments. In particular, the committee is concerned that RPA pilots may not have fair and equal opportunities for promotion as compared to their manned aircraft pilot counterparts and urges the services to continue to review and improve their policies to address this issue.”
Many service members especially combat veteran of the WOT (Afganistan/Iraq) express belief the award and decoration system has become a joke. Holding the belief the awards and decorations system has become a joke requires revulsion and disgust the awards and decorations being presented (awarded) no longer exemplifies (falls short in actions and accomplishment) acts and deeds that is essential to courage, bravery, and level of voluntary willingness to risk life to accomplish an act, deed or service. Establishing a new warfare medal for purposes stated will do what to the credibility and integrity of the awards and decorations many service members already believe are nothing but jokes and career progression points?
It should also be consider whether training proficiency sortie to sustain combat skills and proficiencies or the combat support sortie the RPA pilots and sensor operators encounter no mid-air loss of life possibilities, no number 1, or 2, or 3 in the formation failing to clear a ridgeline while accomplishing a low level navigation sortie possibilities, no physiological hazards of hypoxia and spatial disorientation influencing conditions for loss of life resulting in high speed impact with the ground. At 10,000 feet in combat air space over the ground combat area of operation there is always possibility of emergency ejection or egress into an unfriendly ground environment that is lacking in sitting 10,000 miles away in a room on the ground.
1. As far as the long range permanently CONUS duty position based types (example 11th Reconnaissance Squadron (RS), Creech AFB NV), they have always been eligible for the Aerial Achievement Medal and some of these pilots and systems operators have been awarded the medal for the required number of sustained operational flight sorties.
2. There is a difference of being physically in a potential “all” combat risks environment of being in a manned/crewed aircraft flying through combat designated air space and being a remote pilot and sensor operator crewmember 10,000 miles away from the active ground combat zone and designated combat air space. This is the demarcation preventing the award of the combat medals (AF Combat Action Medal, Purple Heart, Bronze Star Medal, Silver Star, Air Force Cross and Medal of Honor). It is the no exposure to physical dangers necessitating courage, bravery, and voluntary risk of life preventing award of medal having Airman’s/Soldiers Medal, Air Medal, Distinguished Flying Cross precedence of recognition and reverence.
3. What members and supporters of the RPA pilots and sensor operators are politically campaigning and public sympathy marketing for is a proposal for a new warfare medal having prestige and precedence between the Airmen’s Medal (AF equivalent to the Soldier’s Medal) and the Distinguished Flying Cross is needed for “exceptional conduct” for a specific combat support capability not exposed to physical dangers of combat.
Combat medals having Bronze Star, Airmen’s Medal and Distinguished Flying Cross precedence are not “conduct medals”. If for valor there is expectation of courage and bravery involving risk of life (Airman’s Medal requires voluntary risk of life). If for achievement (Distinguished Flying Cross eligibility is heroism or achievement) the quality or level of achievement expected is “must be entirely distinctive, involving operations that are not routine. Not awarded for sustained operational activities and flights.” Consequently the proposals must accurately and truthfully manned and unmanned exposure to “all” the combat risk are equal in frequency, duration and potential possibility and probability for risk of life.
You all can read the following linked to documents to arrive at your own judgments of whether any published article or suggested course of action has accurately and truthfully compared the combat risk exposure.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/in-the-loop/post/drone-pilots-to-get-medals/2012/07/09/gJQAF2PhYW_blog.html
“The Pentagon is considering awarding a Distinguished Warfare Medal to drone pilots who work on military bases often far removed from the battlefield.” And “The proposed medal would rank between the Distinguished Flying Cross and the Soldier’s Medal for exceptional conduct outside a combat zone. “
http://timemilitary.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/pages-from-aspj-may-jun-2012.pdf
“I do not believe that RPA operators are in less danger than their manned counterparts. In fact, I assert that it may well be the other way around.” ; “In other words, if individuals immediately cue, fire, or guide weapons or if they are directly entrusted with the lives of Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, or Marines going into harm’s way, then they are in combat.”; “By treating combat rather than prestige as sacred, we eliminate this contradiction and help these future leaders reconcile themselves to this new type of combat.” (a significant rewrite of being in combat and acting with bravery, courage and putting life at risk-the president is a combat veteran- and consequently get VA disability for service connected PTSD, significant implications with this reasoning).
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquery/?&sid=cp112c6QGn&r_n=hr479.112&dbname=cp112&&sel=TOC_579916&
“House Report 112-479 - NATIONAL DEFENSE AUTHORIZATION ACT FOR FISCAL YEAR 2013, ….”RECOGNITION FOR REMOTELY PILOTED AIRCRAFT PILOTS.
The Committee recognizes the important contributions remotely piloted aircraft (RPA) pilots have made in the theaters of operation. RPA pilots are crucial to missions overseas, flying some of the military's important weapons systems such as the MQ-1 and MQ-9. Their efforts have led to the collection of important intelligence by carrying out missions that would otherwise be too dangerous for manned aircraft. Their role in supporting the war fighters with precision fire support and high endurance surveillance is invaluable. Since the deployment of remotely piloted aircrafts into combat zones, they have proven to be a crucial component in the War on Terror. RPA pilots have supported their fellow war fighters in hazardous situations, both in the conduct of day-to-day activities, as well as special operations. The RPA mission has allowed service members to better execute their military missions, and has aided in the capturing or killing of many high value targets. The committee encourages the Secretaries of the military departments to properly recognize these pilots for their contributions and accomplishments. In particular, the committee is concerned that RPA pilots may not have fair and equal opportunities for promotion as compared to their manned aircraft pilot counterparts and urges the services to continue to review and improve their policies to address this issue.”
Many service members especially combat veteran of the WOT (Afganistan/Iraq) express belief the award and decoration system has become a joke. Holding the belief the awards and decorations system has become a joke requires revulsion and disgust the awards and decorations being presented (awarded) no longer exemplifies (falls short in actions and accomplishment) acts and deeds that is essential to courage, bravery, and level of voluntary willingness to risk life to accomplish an act, deed or service. Establishing a new warfare medal for purposes stated will do what to the credibility and integrity of the awards and decorations many service members already believe are nothing but jokes and career progression points?
It should also be consider whether training proficiency sortie to sustain combat skills and proficiencies or the combat support sortie the RPA pilots and sensor operators encounter no mid-air loss of life possibilities, no number 1, or 2, or 3 in the formation failing to clear a ridgeline while accomplishing a low level navigation sortie possibilities, no physiological hazards of hypoxia and spatial disorientation influencing conditions for loss of life resulting in high speed impact with the ground. At 10,000 feet in combat air space over the ground combat area of operation there is always possibility of emergency ejection or egress into an unfriendly ground environment that is lacking in sitting 10,000 miles away in a room on the ground.
Couple of problems. Johca, these are rhetorical questions/statements and are not directed at you.
"Between" an award for heroism (Airmen's Medal) and one of the top valor decorations in our military (DFC)? For operating a drone from home-country sanctuary? Above the PH, MSM, DMSM, and oh yeah the BSM? Hell no.
The article said there is already an aerial achievement medal, right? Sounds like "problem solved" to me.UAV operators (yes, I said UAV not RPA) are in more danger than pilots operating in Iraq and Afghanistan? From what, coffee spills? Paper cuts? Rush hour traffic?
A new award is going to fix this... how exactly? By making UAV "pilots" feel better about not getting promoted?
Well, it's not going to make it any better.
Something to remember, the AAM is an AF award, Army/Navy would have to recognize it as a joint medal (something they have not been keen on in the past).Couple of problems. Johca, these are rhetorical questions/statements and are not directed at you.
"Between" an award for heroism (Airmen's Medal) and one of the top valor decorations in our military (DFC)? For operating a drone from home-country sanctuary? Above the PH, MSM, DMSM, and oh yeah the BSM? Hell no.
UAV operators (yes, I said UAV not RPA) are in more danger than pilots operating in Iraq and Afghanistan? From what, coffee spills? Paper cuts? Rush hour traffic?
View attachment 6360
A new award is going to fix this... how exactly? By making UAV "pilots" feel better about not getting promoted?
Well, it's not going to make it any better.
Not all RPV guys/gals are CONUS. Each launch/recovery site has a team, so they get the same experience as the rest of the FOBBITs.
That could work. But then again each service could give awards (or not give them) as they see fit. There are also plenty of extant joint awards that I think would be appropriate (JSAM, JCOM, etc.).
Roger. Then they could be eligible for "deployed" awards, which I'm pretty sure is already the case. No need to create anything new.
They both sound like "combat" to me. The difference, dude, is that as a UAV operator, YOU'RE NOT THERE. Your aircraft is.
Oh, good, I guess since the threat is worldwide, I can draw combat pay and the CZTE while I'm stateside (with you, MAJ Blair). I suspect that drone operators are at more risk of getting killed by... well, just about anything than they are by anything that the enemy does to them. And let's just cut to the numbers, shall we? How many fixed-and rotary-wing aircraft and pilots have been lost OCONUS? Now, how many UAV operators have been killed by terrorists CONUS since 9/11. Well, that's an easy one, I'm not even going to link to it, ZERO. Not a f'ing one.
If the logic of this guy is typical of the field, then I think it's likely that the reason UAV operators are not getting promoted with their pilot peers is not because of prejudice...
The tanker/AWACS pilots and whatnot, while for the currents ops aren't really at risk from enemy air, in a full blown war they're one of the first targets and quite juicy ones at that.
You're statistically more likely to get killed in a car accident than from enemy fire in Afghanistan. This guy is 100% right!! Quick, combat pay for everyone! Make all RPA pilots drive to work in MRAPs!
Scotth
Verified Military
I enjoyed this line and it made my morning.
Maj. Blair, seriously I don't know what to say about his comments but wow.
Any manned flight crewmen is in more danger then a RPA pilot no matter where they are in the world.
RetPara
SOF Support
I thought that the UAV operators were being press ganged from active pilots. If so; the the fighter jock mafia will not look at a UAV tour the same as they would a tour piloting a F/A/B anything.
One of the reasons a RPV career field was created.
Aren't they still rated pilots? What is the rationale for having rated pilots operate UAVs instead of say... a commo guy, or an intel officer, or an NCO?
So you have served under a 5th SFG(A) CJSOTF as well I see.
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2008
- Messages
- 1,231
I created this Combat Admin Badge for our S-1 in 2008 or 2009. I would really like to find some place that would make these. I have a few people I would hand them out to.
I think it was in the works about 2 years ago. I hadn't heard if it is still being pushed through, got denied, or was approved. I haven't seen it around. I did however see what they were supposed to look like. Unfortunately, I didn't care enough about it to remember specifics.
Hahaha! No...
UAVs are still subject to airspace, aerodynamics and the laws of physics
Cheaper to have a pilot do it rather than spend even more money training someone else up.Similar threads
