Economic shifts in Central America and China

R.Caerbannog

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So I've been following this geopolitical expert Peter Zeihan. From what I can remember, @Diamondback 2/2 was who first posted a Zeihan blurb a while back. I guess Zeihan worked in DC as an intel analysis generalist, then used his knowledge to shift over from the public sector to the private. For years this guy was talking about demographic pyramids, the flow of trade goods, and how these things affected the economic status of a nation.

For a very long time China has been the world's manufacturing hub. Raw materials are shipped to China, where they are refined, turned into products, and shipped to the world market as finished or unfinished goods. The Chinese govt was able to do this by leveraging it's large population and through a series of state sponsored tactics, of destroying or stealing from any competitors on the world market. So much so, that as the the US transitioned towards a service based economy, most of our industrial tooling was sold and shipped to places like China.

( Old video when Chinese manufacturing was cheap )

Thanks to this economic boon, China was able to become a player on the global stage. Not only did China become wealthy from this, they didn't bear the cost of securing their energy or global trade flows. Those familiar with the war in Iraq should know that China was one of the biggest benefactors of Iraqi oil after the invasion. Essentially we and the allies, who followed us into Iraq, subsidized Chinese manufacturing. While our govt's took on huge debts from China to fund the costs of securing the Middle East.

Everyone thought that system was running smoothly, until China had a leak in one of their Bio Safety Level 4 facilities; Covid. As China locked down and spread the plague, the world was left scrambling to secure medical goods and supplies; that kept their own economies running. Lo and behold, we found out that the Chinese govt was not a good trade partner and that they had some very serious internal problems. Mainly their false population demographics, financial practices, and corruption.

( Demographic problems )

( Financial practices and how China's economy is tied to housing )

As manufacturing centers now shift closer to home, it seems Central America ( and Canada but that's another story ) is poised to become a larger player economically. It seems the America's are about to become much more integrated on an economic scale. Countries like Mexico are expanding an already complex manufacturing foot print. While countries like Colombia will start to develop their own manufacturing footprint, to provide labor and support towards higher manufacturing tier nations; like Mexico.

( Recent talk in Mexico )

As Chinas grows more unstable economically, not counting manufacturing shifts towards SE Asia, what effects do you think this will have?

China's Belt and Road initiative was an attempt at bringing their version of economic control against capital poor, but resource rich, nations. What will this spell for Africa? Can China maintain their holdings?

For Central America, what will this economic restructuring do? Will they rise to power, as a valuable trade partners, like China was or will they join us and Westernize to a higher degree?
 
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The PRC has been active in Central America for a few decades now, primarily through Hutchinson Whampoa on the legal side, the Triads on the illegal side and the MSS, the MPS and the UFWD on the intelligence side.

They were a presence in Panama City when I was there in the late 80’s.
 
I find the 'punchline' a bit difficult to believe, considering its history. 'Assuming nothing goes wrong' means if it as a nation continues on the same trajectory. It has survived worse than a decline in population caused by the One Child policy, which is a concern.
For 'industrialised' its still 60% agrarian so there's still a lot of economic power which is still still dormant. The author mentions real estate and the difficulties there. When Evergrande collapsed, which was the biggest of the R/E conglomerates, no-one blinked, it had been coming for two years. The one major error I believe, was stunting the growth of private industries that were booming and the rationale the Zeihan makes there are plausible.
 
I find the 'punchline' a bit difficult to believe, considering its history. 'Assuming nothing goes wrong' means if it as a nation continues on the same trajectory. It has survived worse than a decline in population caused by the One Child policy, which is a concern.
For 'industrialised' its still 60% agrarian so there's still a lot of economic power which is still still dormant. The author mentions real estate and the difficulties there. When Evergrande collapsed, which was the biggest of the R/E conglomerates, no-one blinked, it had been coming for two years. The one major error I believe, was stunting the growth of private industries that were booming and the rationale the Zeihan makes there are plausible.
That's one thing that I'm wondering about. In how comfortable the CCP is willing to sacrifice a huge chunk of it's population to stay relevant. I have no idea how China is going to care for it's aging population, they don't have the money or people. With a loss in population, revenue, and shifting manufacturing trends, I wonder if they're gonna pull another 'Great Leap Forward'; on what the party deems useless eaters. Maybe that's why they're generating as much chaos they have been?

Regarding the agrarian side of China, I've been hearing that most of China's farmland has been contaminated by industrial waste or shoddy agricultural practices. Which is why they're so reliant on Australia for basic goods, from agricultural to unprocessed minerals. That and large chunk of their agricultural sector is dominated by pre 1930's AG practices. Which is why they can't feed themselves.

Zeihan makes some good points, but the guy is very liberal. His assumptions are well reasoned and come from good data, but his personal leanings make me a little leery.

I don't doubt China will survive, but I wonder how/if they're going to lash out. The CCP already unleashed a plague on the world, is saber rattling in Taiwan, and is sending military aged makes across the southern US border. I kinda wonder if they're going to do something monumentally stupid, that'll ultimately let the younger nations around it eat it piecemeal.
 
Good points all. The next Great Leap may well be Taiwan, one way or another, either wearing it down or mass invasion. Personally I favour the first.
The elderly Chinese is a growing problem and one that’s been recognized for some time.
I’ve not heard anything about the validity of their produce, but they stopped importing wine, beef and lobsters due to our prime minister of the day telling them basically to piss off. A middle power telling the great PRC to sling their hook I believe had the desired effect. As for the produce, we just sold it elsewhere, good product will always find a market. They didn’t stop importing iron ore though, they need it, still do.
We’ve had Chinese here ever since we were a colony, and many make great contributions, so we don’t have a border problem as we shut our borders years ago. Whoever can do it in the States will attain legendary status. It’s a tough one as it it in Europe.
Make no mistake, the CCP will be around for some time, has survived and will continue to do so. It’s been through Mao, the Red Guards, The Great Leap, Tiananmen Square and is still in charge.
 
Why would anyone care about an aging Chinese population?

Like has been said - the CCP has been around forever - and they aren't going anywhere anytime soon.
The elderly in China LOOK like a problem to decent people in the USA - because those of us that still have souls care about that kind of shit...
...but the rest of the Democratic Peoples Republic of North American States are racing to beat the CCP to the undisputed title of "most full of shit government" on the planet"

As long as the elderly are not part of the inner party, fuck 'em.
Who cares!
Do they have political connections?
Do they have wealth?
Do they have something to offer?
Can we exploit them as violent revolutionaries?
No?
Well, then fuck 'em!

Give them the flu and let them die.
Then blame climate change or conservatism - or just call them science deniers.
...But mostly, lets blame it on climate change.

We have at least 81 million voters in the Democratic Peoples Republic of North American States that will never understand that there are some cultures in this world that will never think the same way as we, the profit driven consumerists in the western world...
...all the while acting EXACTLY the same way as the communists that rule Asia.

Respect your elders?
OH MY FUCKING GOD
SERIOUSLY??
We have a generation that gave birth to the phrase "Okay Boomer" that didn't mind selecting an exploitable 80 year old stuttering idiot to be the face of their socialist narrative - so they could rant and rave about the evils of old white establishment politicians.

...of course, in the defense of liberals everywhere, Joe Biden isn't actually a boomer - which makes him immune.
 
Good points all. The next Great Leap may well be Taiwan, one way or another, either wearing it down or mass invasion. Personally I favour the first.
The elderly Chinese is a growing problem and one that’s been recognized for some time.
I’ve not heard anything about the validity of their produce, but they stopped importing wine, beef and lobsters due to our prime minister of the day telling them basically to piss off. A middle power telling the great PRC to sling their hook I believe had the desired effect. As for the produce, we just sold it elsewhere, good product will always find a market. They didn’t stop importing iron ore though, they need it, still do.
We’ve had Chinese here ever since we were a colony, and many make great contributions, so we don’t have a border problem as we shut our borders years ago. Whoever can do it in the States will attain legendary status. It’s a tough one as it it in Europe.
Make no mistake, the CCP will be around for some time, has survived and will continue to do so. It’s been through Mao, the Red Guards, The Great Leap, Tiananmen Square and is still in charge.
I honestly wouldn't eat anything coming out of China. Their food supply chain is compromised all the way down. It's why Chinese nationals were so keen on importing various foodstuffs to mainland China during Covid. Mainly infant formula, preserved foods, and baby goods.

As for the fall in wine, beef, and lobster, I'd call those luxury goods. I wonder if they're also trying to manage tightening purse strings and boycotting those goods as a way of saving face. That, and I have no doubt that the Chinese were trying to screw AUS producers on pricing as well.

(Foy anyone who doesn't know about China's food safety)

Yeah, the border situation is untenable here in the US. That said, I don't think the people coming in from China are looking at making our country stronger. I've run into a lot of their people in higher education and I don't care for them. At a moral level they are still collectivists at heart.
 
Why would anyone care about an aging Chinese population?

Like has been said - the CCP has been around forever - and they aren't going anywhere anytime soon.
The elderly in China LOOK like a problem to decent people in the USA - because those of us that still have souls care about that kind of shit...
...but the rest of the Democratic Peoples Republic of North American States are racing to beat the CCP to the undisputed title of "most full of shit government" on the planet"

As long as the elderly are not part of the inner party, fuck 'em.
Who cares!
Do they have political connections?
Do they have wealth?
Do they have something to offer?
Can we exploit them as violent revolutionaries?
No?
Well, then fuck 'em!

Give them the flu and let them die.
Then blame climate change or conservatism - or just call them science deniers.
...But mostly, lets blame it on climate change.

We have at least 81 million voters in the Democratic Peoples Republic of North American States that will never understand that there are some cultures in this world that will never think the same way as we, the profit driven consumerists in the western world...
...all the while acting EXACTLY the same way as the communists that rule Asia.

Respect your elders?
OH MY FUCKING GOD
SERIOUSLY??
We have a generation that gave birth to the phrase "Okay Boomer" that didn't mind selecting an exploitable 80 year old stuttering idiot to be the face of their socialist narrative - so they could rant and rave about the evils of old white establishment politicians.

...of course, in the defense of liberals everywhere, Joe Biden isn't actually a boomer - which makes him immune.
Given that Joe Biden was taking bribes from the Chinese, via his son, I kinda wonder who's patsy he is. Is the Democratic party full of Chinese communists, pedophiles, and other unsavory elements larping as the US govt?

I mean, we saw a bunch of useful idiots and human garbage try and start a color revolution here in the US. I wonder how much influence the Chinese had in that. That and the extent of China's influence in the DC beltway, cause we all know Newsom and the establishment has sold out California to China. California also has one of the highest populations of Chinese nationals too.
 
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Yeah, the border situation is untenable here in the US. That said, I don't think the people coming in from China are looking at making our country stronger. I've run into a lot of their people in higher education and I don't care for them. At a moral level they are still collectivists at heart.

Oddly enough - it doesn't seem to be limited to illegal aliens either. Even American citizens operate on that paradigm - people don't "move elsewhere" to make things better - they move elsewhere because they have squandered their resources on shenanigans. They butt fuck their environment - they pay/elect derelicts to administer programs in a manner that will feed their desire to suck on the government teat and when their environment has been bled dry - they move somewhere else and the cycle of butt fucking their environment starts again.
...all the while complaining about how everyone ELSE is butt fucking the environment.

It's why liberals FLOCK to paradise - in their private jets - then they elect derelicts to help them butt fuck the landscape - and then move somewhere ran by better folks.
Then they go out of their way to make their new paradise as dysfunctional as their last one...

Rinse
Repeat
 
Oddly enough - it doesn't seem to be limited to illegal aliens either. Even American citizens operate on that paradigm - people don't "move elsewhere" to make things better - they move elsewhere because they have squandered their resources on shenanigans. They butt fuck their environment - they pay/elect derelicts to administer programs in a manner that will feed their desire to suck on the government teat and when their environment has been bled dry - they move somewhere else and the cycle of butt fucking their environment starts again.
...all the while complaining about how everyone ELSE is butt fucking the environment.

It's why liberals FLOCK to paradise - in their private jets - then they elect derelicts to help them butt fuck the landscape - and then move somewhere ran by better folks.
Then they go out of their way to make their new paradise as dysfunctional as their last one...

Rinse
Repeat
Not gonna argue there. I just wonder at what point does a group stop taking shit. We all know what's going to happen when things start falling apart; genocide and well heeled Chinese fleeing abroad. It's happened numerous times before. What's to stop it this time?
 
@R.Caerbannog , those are some amazingly cogent and articulate posts.

I think (and people don't pay me to hear what I think about global geopolitics) China is headed for a world of hurt, for the reasons you mentioned: population decrease and aging population, disruption of the flow of raw materials, their already crappy economy is getting crappier, their agribusiness and industrial foundations are crumbling, etc.

So these are their options as I see them: reach out for global partners to stem the hemorrhage (economy/food/resources/trade), and/or take what they want through force.
 
Agree - but just out of curiosity - what country has ever reached out to global partners for resources when it is easier and more beneficial to take them by force?

I use the following mathematical equation when trying to solve the "how many options does China have" question....

-First, take the numbers of nations that want to sacrifice their OWN resources to pay for the care and feeding of a billion screaming Chinamen?
-Then, take that number, and divide it by how many nations China can exploit without having to say as much as a "pretty please" to get the resources that they need/want..
-Then, multiply THAT number by the number of multinational corporations that are only interested in the hundreds of billions of profit dollars they can make by making deals with the Chinese Communist party.
-Then, add that to the number of celebrities like John Cena who learn how to speak enough Chinese to apologize for suggesting that Taiwan may or may not be a sovereign nation...

-Then, just vote for liberals, because the result will be the exact same - with a whole lot less math.
 
I'm not sure I agree that the US is going around hat-in-hand asking for handouts. We pay exorbitant fees for most of our resources and pass on that price gouging to the American consumer - then we turn right around and we give away tons of shit away in the form of "aid" that we should be using for our own citizens. The rest of our resources are collected using little more than modern era gunboat diplomacy.

The rest of the world that is actually "reaching out" to global partners is hardly in a position to take things by force.
 
I'm not sure I agree that the US is going around hat-in-hand asking for handouts. We pay exorbitant fees for most of our resources and pass on that price gouging to the American consumer - then we turn right around and we give away tons of shit away in the form of "aid" that we should be using for our own citizens. The rest of our resources are collected using little more than modern era gunboat diplomacy.

The rest of the world that is actually "reaching out" to global partners is hardly in a position to take things by force.

Maybe my phrasing was wrong, but I don't mean hat and hand, or begging, but rather with legit economic trade.
 
@R.Caerbannog , those are some amazingly cogent and articulate posts.

I think (and people don't pay me to hear what I think about global geopolitics) China is headed for a world of hurt, for the reasons you mentioned: population decrease and aging population, disruption of the flow of raw materials, their already crappy economy is getting crappier, their agribusiness and industrial foundations are crumbling, etc.

So these are their options as I see them: reach out for global partners to stem the hemorrhage (economy/food/resources/trade), and/or take what they want through force.
Thanks! :D

For the longest time that was what they were doing. Well, a mix of both. In Europe's, case China basically bailed out small European governments with loads of national debt. Specifically by buying up ports and other key infrastructure in Europe, Portugal was one example. China also ironed out trade deals where higher tier manufacturing nations. Germany in particular, became heavily reliant on Chinese heavy industry components. Pig iron, made from Australian ore, was one such commodity the Chinese provided Europe.

The CCP also invested a lot of manpower in exporting Chinese staffed sweatshops into Europe as well. For a while, Italy's tanning and leatherworking shops were dominated by illegal Chinese workers. It's also why Italy was initially hit so badly with Covid, when the outbreak started. As for Africa... that's another bag of worms. O_o

Right now China is plying the European model in Central/South America. They're setting up Chinese owned state enterprises in Latin America, bribing local officials, and staffing them with Chinese workers. China then floods the market with their product and kills off any competition. There is a Chinese automaker that is doing this in Mexico and Great Britain.

I'm not sure I agree that the US is going around hat-in-hand asking for handouts. We pay exorbitant fees for most of our resources and pass on that price gouging to the American consumer - then we turn right around and we give away tons of shit away in the form of "aid" that we should be using for our own citizens. The rest of our resources are collected using little more than modern era gunboat diplomacy.

The rest of the world that is actually "reaching out" to global partners is hardly in a position to take things by force.
You're right, we're not. We're actually subsidizing global trade, on top of the handouts we give to countries who hate us. As a nation we give so much money to foreign powers it's sickening. All while our domestic manufacturing capabilities have been supplanted, to nations who hate us, by greedy multinationalists and our political elite. Luckily that's changing, it just took China unleashing a plague on the world and the Russians acting like retards.
 
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I honestly wouldn't eat anything coming out of China. Their food supply chain is compromised all the way down. It's why Chinese nationals were so keen on importing various foodstuffs to mainland China during Covid. Mainly infant formula, preserved foods, and baby goods.

As for the fall in wine, beef, and lobster, I'd call those luxury goods. I wonder if they're also trying to manage tightening purse strings and boycotting those goods as a way of saving face. That, and I have no doubt that the Chinese were trying to screw AUS producers on pricing as well.

(Foy anyone who doesn't know about China's food safety)

Yeah, the border situation is untenable here in the US. That said, I don't think the people coming in from China are looking at making our country stronger. I've run into a lot of their people in higher education and I don't care for them. At a moral level they are still collectivists at heart.
Ok yeah, I get the imported food thingy now. I agree as I also check the source at point of sale. To add, the pissoffski was our government asking that with the world closed for business and people dying can you explain what occurred in Wuhan?
 
Ok yeah, I get the imported food thingy now. I agree as I also check the source at point of sale. To add, the pissoffski was our government asking that with the world closed for business and people dying can you explain what occurred in Wuhan?
Ah okay, I remember that! Y'all were the first people to call China out on their bullshit, while everyone lese was playing nice with them.
 
A couple of fun facts; the original ban also included coal and also barley. The absence coal allegedly led to deaths due to the shortage in the Northern winter and the lack of barley made Tsingtao beer more shit that it is usually, so two own goals. As discussed, both were sold elsewhere.
That's one thing that I wonder about China. With their Kung Flu bioweapon, they let a shitload of their people die. I wonder if this is going to be the norm, as they whittle their population numbers down via incompetence and malfeasance.

Speaking of raw goods, they're still heavily reliant on Aussie raw iron. Is there any way you guys can move up the processing chain? There should have been advances in the processing of iron, any way Australia can build semi automated mini foundries to further cut into China's trade wallet?
 
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