Fayetteville, NC History Teacher Stomps on U.S. Flag in Classroom

[Marine0311]

I think a lot of posters are misunderstanding the meaning, and the importance of meaning, in this news story. Mr. Francis, in an attempt to illustrate the extent of first amendment protections, decided to do a physical demonstration. It wasn't a protest. He wasn't taking a shit on America or anything. He was demonstrating how the Supreme Court interprets protected speech in a very visceral way.

So what is the difference between a protester stepping on an American flag and Mr. Francis stepping on an American flag? Superficially, they're the exact same act - put the flag on the ground, put your foot on it. What differentiates the two, however, is the intent and meaning behind the act. While one person is expressing displeasure with the United States for whatever reason, the other is illustrating a salient point about the nature of free speech. Needless to say that Mr. Francis' students probably won't forget about Texas v. Johnson any time soon.

Let's look at a similar situation involving flag burning:

What is the difference between a protester burning the flag

And the proper disposal of an old flag via burning?

Again, superficially they're the same act: you're taking a flag and setting it on fire. But I doubt that any one of you would take issue with the disposal of a United States flag because you understand that meaning behind the act is completely different. Now, we know that the meaning behind Mr. Francis' act was to teach high school children about free speech, even if it superficially resembled an act of protest. Why, then, are so many of you upset about it?

Because it is disgusting treatment of the flag that's why!

 

[Marauder06]

I think a lot of posters are misunderstanding the meaning, and the importance of meaning, in this news story. Mr. Francis, in an attempt to illustrate the extent of first amendment protections, decided to do a physical demonstration. It wasn't a protest. He wasn't taking a shit on America or anything. He was demonstrating how the Supreme Court interprets protected speech in a very visceral way.

So what is the difference between a protester stepping on an American flag and Mr. Francis stepping on an American flag? Superficially, they're the exact same act - put the flag on the ground, put your foot on it. What differentiates the two, however, is the intent and meaning behind the act. While one person is expressing displeasure with the United States for whatever reason, the other is illustrating a salient point about the nature of free speech. Needless to say that Mr. Francis' students probably won't forget about Texas v. Johnson any time soon.

Let's look at a similar situation involving flag burning:

What is the difference between a protester burning the flag

And the proper disposal of an old flag via burning?

Again, superficially they're the same act: you're taking a flag and setting it on fire. But I doubt that any one of you would take issue with the disposal of a United States flag because you understand that meaning behind the act is completely different. Now, we know that the meaning behind Mr. Francis' act was to teach high school children about free speech, even if it superficially resembled an act of protest. Why, then, are so many of you upset about it?

 

[Salt USMC]

Not only meaning, but purpose. Disposal of a flag is a somber event and point of pride to render final honors to our nation's colors, after they have served out their lifetime as such.

Is teaching young adults about the scope of free speech not important?

The simple fact is that while it falls under protected speech, it's still disrepect and offensive to the vast majority of people. There are multiple other ways that the point could have been made without disrepect to OUR colors.

Mr. Francis even addresses this in the video attached to the article

"My educational philosophy is that it has to be relevant. It has to be something that students can see, students can feel, student can connect with. You read something all day...you can watch someone being slapped in the face and think its hurts, but until it happens to you, you don't know what it feels like.

Weren't we talking about the silliness of "trigger warnings" and "safe spaces" not too long ago? How taking offense at something was being "PC"? Suddenly, it's terribly provocative and wrong to use a flag as a teaching point about the importance of fundamental rights because it's offensive.

 

[Marauder06]

I think you're absolutely right, it's all about intent. I think it's quite clear that what Mr. Francis intended all along was to impose his personal political views on his students, in a manner which would be extremely offensive to his (largely military-affiliated) students, in order to bring attention to himself and his cause, (and to promote his political ambitions) and ultimately generate a payday from the local school district after they (predictably) took prudent and reasonable steps to discipline him for his misconduct.

And no, what he did isn't covered by "academic freedom" either.

This isn't "mistaken meaning," it's a clear case of "manufactured martyrdom."

 

[Salt USMC]

Did I miss something about this case? How is he pushing his political views on his students when he was illustrating well-established case law?

While I don't agree with punishing the student who took the photo, I also think that the acrimony against Mr. Francis is unfounded. It doesn't seem like he did this to generate attention for any sort of cause, and the article you linked certainly doesn't say anything about that. The second article doesn't seem to say anything about political ambitions (beyond a very short-lived prior bid for state representative, for which the article doesn't even give a date).
Also, this bit made me laugh

If nothing else, the offensive lesson is a reminder of how public schools have become incubators for un-American activities.

Todd Starnes, of course

 

[Ranger Psych]

Ok, I am on my tablet here in Memphis (where are you when we have nightly spam, anyway) so pardon me for not bothering with quoting....

But, we are talking about mfing high school. This isnt ADULTS TEACHING ADULTS, ITS MINORS FORCED TO ATTEND.

Captive, forced, audience. The kids that walked could be handled through truancy, if the letter but not intent of the law was followed.

I want to make an educational point. Go sit in the iron chair, and reread this entire thread while doing so. Forced situation, you dislike even the thought of it. Gee, concept.

You obviously didnt enjoy being forced to do things, else you would have reenlisted. You wanted the freedom of choice, for example, to be able to blather your offensive point of view, contest everyone else's, then wonder when we flip shit about a forced audience in their arguably most formative years, towards the banner of that which we should all rally under for equality, dignity, respect snd fucking humanity, in this time of everything else before American....and the subsequent social disarray from focusing on our differences.

 

[TLDR20]

Really? How so?

If you can't tell from my post I'm not going more into it.

 

[Brill]

Ok, I am on my tablet here in Memphis (where are you when we have nightly spam, anyway) so pardon me for not bothering with quoting....

But, we are talking about mfing high school. This isnt ADULTS TEACHING ADULTS, ITS MINORS FORCED TO ATTEND.

Captive, forced, audience. The kids that walked could be handled through truancy, if the letter but not intent of the law was followed.

I want to make an educational point. Go sit in the iron chair, and reread this entire thread while doing so. Forced situation, you dislike even the thought of it. Gee, concept.

You obviously didnt enjoy being forced to do things, else you would have reenlisted. You wanted the freedom of choice, for example, to be able to blather your offensive point of view, contest everyone else's, then wonder when we flip shit about a forced audience in their arguably most formative years, towards the banner of that which we should all rally under for equality, dignity, respect snd fucking humanity, in this time of everything else before American....and the subsequent social disarray from focusing on our differences.

So you're "pro" school vouchers?

Out of ALL the First Amendment cases to highlight our freedom of speech right, why this one? Military funerals, porn, political speech, etc are all less inflammatory for USMIL kids.

 

[Brill]

I think a lot of posters are misunderstanding the meaning, and the importance of meaning, in this news story. Mr. Francis, in an attempt to illustrate the extent of first amendment protections, decided to do a physical demonstration. It wasn't a protest. He wasn't taking a shit on America or anything. He was demonstrating how the Supreme Court interprets protected speech in a very visceral way.

So what is the difference between a protester stepping on an American flag and Mr. Francis stepping on an American flag? Superficially, they're the exact same act - put the flag on the ground, put your foot on it. What differentiates the two, however, is the intent and meaning behind the act. While one person is expressing displeasure with the United States for whatever reason, the other is illustrating a salient point about the nature of free speech. Needless to say that Mr. Francis' students probably won't forget about Texas v. Johnson any time soon.

Let's look at a similar situation involving flag burning:

What is the difference between a protester burning the flag

And the proper disposal of an old flag via burning?

Again, superficially they're the same act: you're taking a flag and setting it on fire. But I doubt that any one of you would take issue with the disposal of a United States flag because you understand that meaning behind the act is completely different. Now, we know that the meaning behind Mr. Francis' act was to teach high school children about free speech, even if it superficially resembled an act of protest. Why, then, are so many of you upset about it?

Because this teacher's actions are used for anti-American propaganda by our enemies. I can talk shit about my family all day but you disparage Mrs Hogwhollap, and we shall engage in fisticuffs my good Sir!

 

[SpitfireV]

I think they can find more than enough in official government action for that; they don't need this one teacher.

 

[TLDR20]

I think they can find more than enough in official government action for that; they don't need this one teacher.

Yeah or from our small handed Presidential candidate.

 

[Etype]

Racial slurs are also protected free speech. What would happen if a student uttered one of them? Questions that should be considered.

There are a great number of things that are 'allowed' or 'protected,' but restraint is also a virtue that everyone possesses and should exercise.

Maybe that was the next lesson.

 

[Etype]

Trying to then equate the 400 years of racism to being called a honkey in the ghetto is disingenuous as shit. It isn't the same.At All.

This is a tired, nonsensical argument, and I've debated it first hand in the military.

The overwhelming majority of white folks weren't involved in slavery by way of their lineage; and/or like myself, their families weren't even in the US yet.

People today aren't responsible for what happened three generations ago. This isnt N Korea where children are responsible for finishing their dead parents sentences in political re-education camps.

If that is the case, Irish Catholics owe me some money as well as any German Americans with Nazi ties- they are the reasons why both my sets of grandparents had to leave Europe.

 

[TLDR20]

This is a tired, nonsensical argument, and I've debated it first hand in the military.

The overwhelming majority of white folks weren't involved in slavery by way of their lineage; and/or like myself, their families weren't even in the US yet.

People today aren't responsible for what happened three generations ago. This isnt N Korea where children are responsible for finishing their dead parents sentences in political re-education camps.

If that is the case, Irish Catholics owe me some money as well as any German Americans with Nazi ties- they are the reasons why both my sets of grandparents had to leave Europe.

Yeah racism and slavery are different things. Racism continues. I never mentioned slavery.

 

[TLDR20]

This is a tired, nonsensical argument, and I've debated it first hand in the military.

The overwhelming majority of white folks weren't involved in slavery by way of their lineage; and/or like myself, their families weren't even in the US yet.

People today aren't responsible for what happened three generations ago. This isnt N Korea where children are responsible for finishing their dead parents sentences in political re-education camps.

If that is the case, Irish Catholics owe me some money as well as any German Americans with Nazi ties- they are the reasons why both my sets of grandparents had to leave Europe.

In some of memberships lifetimes Jim Crow laws were enforced. In certain places in the south it is written into home deeds that blacks cannot purchase the home. Pretending that our nation doesn't have racism etched into its history is ignoring reality.

 

[Brill]

In some of memberships lifetimes Jim Crow laws were enforced. In certain places in the south it is written into home deeds that blacks cannot purchase the home. Pretending that our nation doesn't have racism etched into its history is ignoring reality.

Shelly vs Kraemer ruled those covenants violated 14th Amendment.

Interesting case too. Individuals can buy/sell as they wish but the state cannot enforce racial restrictions.

 

[Ooh-Rah]

There are a great number of things that are 'allowed' or 'protected,' but restraint is also a virtue that everyone possesses and should exercise.

Yes.

To add -

To feel like a country united behind something, there have to be some things that are sacred. Period. Not standing for the National Anthem and desecrating the flag are just a few.

To allow ourselves to be shamed for "making such a big deal about it" chips away at the foundation of patriotism and the feeling that there is something special in what we have.

Truth be told, it pisses me off to no end when "the enlightened" tell me to lighten up or get over it when I express outrage or disappointment over behavior which I find offensive to me as a proud American.

At this pace, where will we be in a generation from now? Two generations? We will be the continent of North America. It will be completely acceptable to scoff at those who desire to hold onto old traditions like patriotism.

Sometimes It seems as if the Tinfoil crowd who fear the New-World-Order aren't as crazy as we make them out to be. That makes me genuinely sad.

 

[Salt USMC]

Racial slurs are also protected free speech. What would happen if a student uttered one of them? Questions that should be considered.

The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn is still taught in many high school literature courses despite its provocative nature. I'm well aware of efforts to try to remove it, but its an enduring classic precisely because of the lessons it teaches us.

This is not necessarily directed at you, but I'm seeing an odd double standard from previous threads. When minorities are offended, the response is: "Suck it up", "grow a spine", "it's not that bad!". But when you offend the sensibilities of the military or children of the military, it suddenly becomes A Very Serious Issue. Which is it gonna be guys?

Because this teacher's actions are used for anti-American propaganda by our enemies. I can talk shit about my family all day but you disparage Mrs Hogwhollap, and we shall engage in fisticuffs my good Sir!

 

[Ooh-Rah]

This is not necessarily directed at you, but I'm seeing an odd double standard from previous threads. When minorities are offended, the response is: "Suck it up", "grow a spine", "it's not that bad!". <snip>

I think that you're unfairly generalizing when you say that. I will be among the first to stand up for those who are wronged. That said, the very people who I would stand up for will be the first to tell me to "suck it up", "grow a spine", "it's not that bad!" When I raise concerns over things that they have said or done that offend my principles.

If there is a double standard, it is there, and adds to the reason I may not always appear as sympathetic to their causes when I know there track record for supporting the things that are important to me.

 

[Salt USMC]

I think that you're unfairly generalizing when you say that. I will be among the first to stand up for those who are wronged. That said, the very people who I would stand up for will be the first to tell me to "suck it up", "grow a spine", "it's not that bad!" When I raise concerns over things that they have said or done that offend my principles.

If there is a double standard, it is there, and adds to the reason I may not always appear as sympathetic to their causes when I know there track record for supporting the things that are important to me.

That's a fair criticism. I mean, I'm not citing specific posts, but rather generalized arguments. If anything, it's something that should be considered in the future, i.e. "Before I dismiss this as 'not being offensive', maybe I should think about how it affects this person (or group)"