FIELD LOSS OF SENSITIVE ITEM

[Marauder06]

T But realistically, to burn an NCO for this seems like total chickenshit stuff ?

Constructive input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Losing a sensitive item isn't "chickenshit." It's a failure of one of the most basic responsibilities of an NCO: accountability.

The way you described the situation in your initial post, this isn't just a failure on his part, it's a failure on yours as well. Blowing off losing a sensitive item and then telling your commander about it only after you returned to home station represents extremely poor decision making. If you were in my command, both of you would be out of a job.

One mistake is not a career-killer, but the way you outlined things in this thread makes it look like a pattern of bad decisions. I suggest you get out ahead of this by realizing and admitting you screwed up. Badly. And then you need to adopt some humility, far more than you've shown here. You messed up. Your NCO messed up. Own it, learn from it, move on.

Or don't, that's fine too.

 

[policemedic]

Honestly, it sounds like you made a (very poor) decision above your pay grade. Arguably, a series of such decisions.

Regarding your NCO, it may be that your failure to discharge your duty has put him in a worse position than simply losing the item. I say this because one of the reasons people delay reporting things like this is that the item wasn't lost; it was stolen. I'm not saying that's what happened but if I were the investigator it would be something I'd want to rule out.

 

[Centermass]

I think you got most of your answers. Not to dog pile, but to sub summarize:

Lessons learned:

1. Bad news doesn't grow better with age. The BOSS needs to be the first one to know. Screw the exercise. Let the command make the decision. This rests with them, not you.

2. Tie shit down. And when you do, tie it down to a standard, that will keep it attached to the person even if they're caught in a tornado, not with some granny knot. That way, when their body is recovered later on 7 miles away, the radio will still be there, even if they're not.

3. PCC's and sensitive items check - Should be SOP for all leaders to conduct them prior to movement, during movement, whenever movement stops and prior to moving again.

 

[Etype]

Lost radios in theater means everyone has to roll crypto, which means potentially ending multi-day missions early, and every system working on that segment rolling crypto.

This means everyone from the GCC on down to 2LT Dufenshmirtz refilling their radios.

That's hundreds of man hours, those hours cost money- lots of money.

 

[DA SWO]

Lost radios in theater means everyone has to roll crypto, which means potentially ending multi-day missions early, and every system working on that segment rolling crypto.

This means everyone from the GCC on down to 2LT Dufenshmirtz refilling their radios.

That's hundreds of man hours, those hours cost money- lots of money.

Had one of my lesser troops lose crypto in Asscrackistan, new crypto Centcom wide.

Take your lumps, learn from it and move on.

Good luck.

 

[Etype]

I know it's already been said not to pile on, but here it go.

The MBTR had nothing loaded into and was used for nothing other than internal comms.

But it was training, training simulates combat; in combat, it would have a fill. That's how training should be approached.

... Shit does happen, even in the Corps, so please. I have lots of friends with USMC service telling me how they lost shit left and right.

10 months on SOTF-W with Marines and they never lost a thing. In fact, no crypto roll I can remember while deployed was cause by Marines. I do remember my unit recovering an M40 in Baghdad, but it's operator was KIA.

I'm surprised they don't have your unit walking on line through the woods looking for it.

I remember one dude lost a set of NODs on Sicily DZ when I was in the 82nd. It was hands across the DZ until they were round-trip no one sent anywhere.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

All the responses probably feel like a kick in the dick, but they're all right. Probably one of the better counseling session's I've seen on here. Take this and run with it.

Pretty proud of ShadowSpear tonight!

 

[CAL*38A]

Your CDR has to do a Field Loss of Property Liability (FLIPL) and an investigation under article 15-6 as the loss was of a sensitive item. It's a big deal and it's very likely recommendations out of the 15-6 would include disciplinary action - it would if I were doing the investigation. If the IO does their job there will be several recommendations to come out of the investigation - better accountability procedures at a minimum. Your team should have kept up with their gear better and you should have reported it immediately when you identified the loss - you needed to give your higher CDR the ability to sign off on your decision not to halt the exercise.

Ultimately your BN/BDE CDR will decide the future of disciplinary and administrative (financial) actions. All you can do is be honest with the IO, acknowledge your mistakes, and be ready to take whatever punishment the CDR decides. That's the best way to go into any investigation.

That was my intent.
The financial aspect of it is the least of my concerns. Unfortunately, the CO is an " Army-of-one" type, if you know what I mean. Me first, second and last. He'd been angling for this, and I gave him the opportunity ( personal differences that we have not settled). In all sincerity, I really don't give a crap anymore about what he thinks. But if my NCO is hung out to dry for this, I honestly feel that I will need to reconsider my stay in this unit and perhaps the Army altogether.

You are right. Nevertheless, what remains is that there was ( nor is) an SOP in place for such matters ( frankly, if we had had the proper pouches, lanyards and crap this would not have been an issue). I held out for 6 days while we tried to find it. Then I reported it. Still, I honestly feel that it would have been a bad call to halt the exercise. Specially when the unit had a ton of visibility in it, and the BN as a whole got rated A+.
I took the gamble. It is what it is at this point. The 15-6 is already started.

 

[CAL*38A]

I'm surprised they don't have your unit walking on line through the woods looking for it.

Here is the thing, already did. FIVE times. It's only a 30 meter run from the structure to the vehicle. Nowhere else to go.
I am 99.9% certain it was picked up by either an OPFOR or OCT. But why ? they made their point.

 

[CAL*38A]

All the responses probably feel like a kick in the dick, but they're all right. Probably one of the better counseling session's I've seen on here. Take this and run with it.

Pretty proud of ShadowSpear tonight!

I know.
Sucks, but ALL the advise is well taken.

But I am still not willing to let my NCO burn. I'd rather resign before I do.

 

[Etype]

I know.
Sucks, but ALL the advise is well taken.

But I am still not willing to let my NCO burn. I'd rather resign before I do.

What could happen?

- He may have to pay a portion of his pay for several months.
- You may have to write him a negative counseling.
- He might get a NEEDS IMPROVEMENT rating for RESPONSIBILITY AND ACCOUNTABILITY on his next NCOER.

All of these are legitimate recourses.

 

[CAL*38A]

Big deal? Meh, shit happens, they will hammer his ass with some bullshit, make him pay a depreciated value of the loss, and it will all be forgotten in 6 mths. Shit happens, this is a learning event, tie everything down, sensitive item check before you move off the objective, standard basic Army shit. His career is not over, and he isn't the first or last NCO to lose a sensitive item.

Stick up for him in the sense that he is a good NCO that made a mistake. Don't down play the mistake, address it as a learning experience (a costly one) that this NCO won't ever repeat. Ask for a light punishment, or to keep the punishment in house at your level. In other words you're not keeping him from facing the music, you want to ensure its dealt with correctly to help mold this NCO.

Class on tying down gear, writing a sensitive items checks and accountability SOP and implementing through NCOPD throughout the battalion, would be a fitting punishment/learning experience IMHO.

Just some ideas, good luck!

Thanks man. But I think this CO has other ideas. I'm the one in the crosshairs now. Shifting fire.

 

[CAL*38A]

Doesn't matter if there was a fill. Just the fact that it can TAKE a fill makes i5 sensitive for a reason. If you want help making your radios actually work better afor this is done, pipe up then. Il duce is correct with how that will go down. Look at it this way, a LT I had, left multiple common sensitive items, a unsanitized map, and some other junk on the other side of the country on a training mission. Even with a GOLOR, he still made LTC.....

I got it.
I have never left a sock unattended, neither has he, ever. He is probably one of the sharpest, stand-up soldiers I have met in many years. This was a fluke, and I feel that unnecessary drama is being created.

 

[CAL*38A]

Check your numbers, the MBITR's are $6000-$8000 each, and its not the $$$$ that is the big deal, the Army spends $6000 on overpriced toilet paper that cuts your ass....It's the Crypto Card that will snip your nuts.

It looks like you did everything right. In the future maybe better PTT's would have helped you notice that your pouch broke but you have a dangling 5 lb radio hitting you in the knee. Good sworn statements should keep you and your buddy on the right side of pain. Also that BC you had to "save", his sworn statement needs to be included for icing on the cake!

Side note, Pass me the link to getting MBITR's on EBAY for $400 new, I think I just came up with my retirement plan....

Dead serious! $417.90 and currently listing 3 available..

 

[CAL*38A]

I would like to thank all, SOF, marines and all others who have contributed and given me an earful and that the advice is well heeded.

Centermass hit it on the nail.

And to the couple of wisecracks that feel I need a touch of humility:
Take a look in the mirror if you can honestly say that YOU are feel so humble in your ass pedestal. If you were, you would not be in the forum. But whatever. It's a free country, and God Bless this great nation.

Anyway, I take 100% responsibility for not reporting it in a timely manner. Lesson learned for me. Next time F the FTX, I will let them make that call.

And to all a good night.

 

[policemedic]

Dead serious! $417.90 and currently listing 3 available..

Yeah, those are Chinese copies that I hope you'd never consider putting in service.

 

[policemedic]

That was my intent.
The financial aspect of it is the least of my concerns. Unfortunately, the CO is an " Army-of-one" type, if you know what I mean. Me first, second and last. He'd been angling for this, and I gave him the opportunity ( personal differences that we have not settled). In all sincerity, I really don't give a crap anymore about what he thinks. But if my NCO is hung out to dry for this, I honestly feel that I will need to reconsider my stay in this unit and perhaps the Army altogether.

You are right. Nevertheless, what remains is that there was ( nor is) an SOP in place for such matters ( frankly, if we had had the proper pouches, lanyards and crap this would not have been an issue). I held out for 6 days while we tried to find it. Then I reported it. Still, I honestly feel that it would have been a bad call to halt the exercise. Specially when the unit had a ton of visibility in it, and the BN as a whole got rated A+.
I took the gamble. It is what it is at this point. The 15-6 is already started.

The NCO's pouch ripped, but the root cause of the loss wasn't equipment failure so railing against the poor quality of your issued gear isn't going to get you anywhere. I bought my own pouches, and so did many of the guys in my unit. 550 is free and plentiful.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

Well fuck, you got honest opinions from some seasoned officers and non commissioned officers, and you shit you're shorts. If you're willing to resign your commission over this little ant hill. Well I've got nothing for you...

And so others who may read this. This is absolutely not how an officer fucks up and asks for help, and refuse's sound, experienced wisdom.


So @CAL*38A, here is my honest opinion, without tac.

Your high speed NCO screwed up, he didn't do normal basic Army shit (dummy cord sensitive items). You failed because you didn't take it seriously, and now you have fucked you both with arrogant "no big deal" leadership. Was this a big deal? No, but your lack of give a fuck, lack of sincerity and lack of abilities to listen have cornered you both. Yes you should resign, you are a terrible officer, on many levels, and yes your NCO fucked you, because you both are too dumb to remember basic ass shit...

At the end of the day, you failed, he fucked up... But more importantly, you failed here at a gold mine of wisdom and experience. So with that, welcome to my ignore list.


I'm actually getting too fast with that feature, but I like it!

 

[Marauder06]

I would like to thank all, SOF, marines and all others who have contributed and given me an earful and that the advice is well heeded.

Centermass hit it on the nail.

And to the couple of wisecracks that feel I need a touch of humility:
Take a look in the mirror if you can honestly say that YOU are feel so humble in your ass pedestal. If you were, you would not be in the forum. But whatever. It's a free country, and God Bless this great nation.

Anyway, I take 100% responsibility for not reporting it in a timely manner. Lesson learned for me. Next time F the FTX, I will let them make that call.

And to all a good night.

Louis, look, you're being a complete idiot right now. The more you write, the more certain I am that you don't deserve to hold an officer's commission.

That said, as a professional courtesy from one officer to another, I'm offering you this final suggestion: stop talking.

In this thread you demonstrated very poor judgment, contempt for authority and procedure, and a complete disregard for the very sound advice that people with a combined 100+ years of experience have offered you.

Worse, you also publicly trash-talked your commander multiple times, which puts you further at risk of being relieved for cause and also makes you vulnerable to Articles 133 and 134 of the UCMJ. And you did it while you're under investigation. What do you think would happen if your chain of command were to stumble over this site, or if someone here were to send screen captures to them? Would that make things better, or worse, for you and your NCO?

You're showing indications of being one of the worst types of officer: too inexperienced to know and follow the rules, too dense to understand why we have them, and too hard headed to admit when he was wrong.

If your NCO "burns," that's on you. If you would have done the right thing right away, you might not have recovered the lost sensitive item, but the situation wouldn't smack of incompetence and a cover-up like it does now. The great irony of this situation is that by not doing your job, you made things worse for the guy you're trying to protect.

You mentioned that you were contemplating resigning... I think that's a good idea, both from the Army and this site. You clearly know more than everyone else, everyone is out to get you, and you're smarter than everyone in your unit and on this forum.

You should go. I'll just be over here... in my "ass pedestal."

 

[Gunz]

... I have lots of friends with USMC service telling me how they lost shit left and right. And none got reamed for it unless deservedly so...

I seriously doubt it. Almost seven continuous months in the bush until I got hit, with 10 Marines and 1 Corpsman, combat loaded, mobile every night at sundown, sitting in ambush every night, through contacts, medevacs, CAS, mine and boobytrap detonations, monsoon floods, dynamic maneuver, running foot reacts, running gunfights and during all that time one guy lost a bayonet, another an entrenching tool, neither of which we ever used except to play mumbly peg or dig a shitter in the bushes. The Marine Corps has zero tolerance for lost gear.