How to Break an Officer as a Leader

[Ranger Psych]

Thing is, and I'm not trying to be a prick... but your proving a point w/ a flatbed for pax logistics just means that you made a couple platoons suck more than necessary, when you knew what his mission was. Taking him on a walk to the motor pool and telling him non-specific orders get non-specific tasking, and tires/engine/etc are optional let alone all other accessories might have proven the point better.

 

[LogDog0402]

Thing is, and I'm not trying to be a prick... but your proving a point w/ a flatbed for pax logistics just means that you made a couple platoons suck more than necessary, when you knew what his mission was. Taking him on a walk to the motor pool and telling him non-specific orders get non-specific tasking, and tires/engine/etc are optional let alone all other accessories might have proven the point better.

I agree with you 100% and that is how I typically did things for folks that didn't understand what motor-t could provide, but when you are the former MTO you don't get the same courtesy because you should know better. I always tried to make sure people got what they asked for and I always asked clarifying questions like "What are you hauling?", "How many pax?", "What kind of gear?" and so forth. Help me help you and everything will go smooth.

 

[pardus]

I agree with you 100% and that is how I typically did things for folks that didn't understand what motor-t could provide, but when you are the former MTO you don't get the same courtesy because you should know better. I always tried to make sure people got what they asked for and I always asked clarifying questions like "What are you hauling?", "How many pax?", "What kind of gear?" and so forth. Help me help you and everything will go smooth.

Wait, so to be clear, you made the enlisted guys suffer through the flatbed to punish another Officer, is that correct?

 

[LogDog0402]

Wait, so to be clear, you made the enlisted guys suffer through the flatbed to punish another Officer, is that correct?

Actually, the enlisted did not suffer because the truck still arrived on time. It only takes about 10 minutes to convert a 7-ton from flat bed to troop carrier. I was influenced on this decision by two MSgts and two crusty CWO3s as I was a newly minted 1stLt. They gave me the idea and I rolled with it but made sure to have troop carriers ready but out of sight. I should clarify that we were all in the field for this exercise and my guys worked their asses off and still got zero recognition from the Bn CO. Did we have problems? Yes, more than half my vehicles were down for maintenance and therefore we had to make multiple trips instead of one big ass convoy. Just thinking back to this exercise pisses me off. I told my boss about the vehicles being down and howthings were going to have to be done but he failed to tell the CO. I told the CO at the confirmation brief only after I had to speak up when the S-4 Officer started briefing the motor-t support plan. Sorry, didn't mean to go off on a tangent here. I just wanted to emphasize that there was more to me just being a dick to prove a point than it seems. A lot of not getting listned too by the S-4a and S-4 actual certainly made the suggestion to give them the truck they asked for and not the truck they needed made a lot of sense. At some point you have to stand your ground and prove you know what the fuck you are doing and unfortunately there are those that have nothing to do with the situation that end up suffering. I hated the politics side of being an officer and many of the SNCOs I worked with knew that I hated that side of it.

 

[0699]

I agree with you 100% and that is how I typically did things for folks that didn't understand what motor-t could provide, but when you are the former MTO you don't get the same courtesy because you should know better. I always tried to make sure people got what they asked for and I always asked clarifying questions like "What are you hauling?", "How many pax?", "What kind of gear?" and so forth. Help me help you and everything will go smooth.

I learned as a SSgt that it was a lot easier to tell the Log Chief "On Monday, I need to move a 20,000 pound comm van from building X to building Y" than it was to try to plan everything myself. He's the expert.

 

[Ooh-Rah]

This entire thread depresses me. Here is the thing. No matter how "hard" we have it as officers I promise you our enlisted have it ten times worse. I had a SEAL Chief tell me once that enlisted men are like sled dogs (random story-I once did a guest stint as a land warfare instructor for NSW at Billy Makin). They will feel the bite of the cold and sting of the lash as they pull the sled to the finish line. They will rest for a moment, thinking their job is done, when a new asshole jumps into the sled, admires the novelty of it, and starts to whip the pups anew. This cycle continues as the sled dog's hair starts to grey, his hide toughens and he realizes through hard learned lessons how to best win the race. Meanwhile the sled driver remains the same age, often fails to listen to his sled dogs and only grows weary from cracking the whip. A task which exhausts him no doubt as he can only handle two to three years in his position as his sled dogs sludge through decade after decade of operational service. Every once in a great while however, the sled dogs will look back in confusion at an empty sled...only to realize that the sled driver is running ahead of them, pulling his harness with no complaint as he suffers through every difficulty and challenge they experience without complaint.

As officers and leaders we often have to suffer through poor leadership above us. Guess who your subordinates see? You. That's it. Hopefully you are the line between sanity and insanity for them. If we lose sight of this fact we can become discouraged, internalize and look inward at our own problems. Being an officer is all about being a servant leader. Learn to serve the men who follow your orders. See what a difference you hopefully make in their lives. This should help you refocus on what is important. Guess why your superiors suck?? Because all the good officers got out. If you get out then you are perpetuating the cycle of failed leadership through your absence. Look below and not above and you will find the answers you seek.

@Teufel , I am getting ready to begin a new job, and the managers that I will be leading could easily be described as the sled-dogs that you so eloquently described. Thank you for this, I am going to add this printed copy of wisdom to my toolbox.

 

[ThunderHorse]

This ended up being the product, I used Teufel's sled dogs piece in here:

http://op-for.com/2014/04/how-to-break-an-officer.html

An update to the LT my CO was talking to in that class, my wingman:

He'd been treated pretty bad by the previous CO and was really a work horse. He's a good leader and loves his soldiers, but like I said he's been treated pretty bad since he got here and things only really changed when our CO took command.

Well yesterday we were packing up our kit, stowing it in our trucks, and preparing to go home from the squadron forward assembly area. Our CO and 1SG saw the squadron Sergeants Major smoking his driver for not wearing any gloves, there had been no guidance for us to be in kit as we were going home. Our CO and 1SG said get in kit as a pre-emptive move.

Well, as the information was being pushed down the operations Sergeants Major came up on our position, my CO had attempted to talk to him. And he just went down a platoons line and started grabbing patrol caps off of Soldiers' heads. He grabbed this LT's and ripped it off. He asked him what he was doing, ordered him to give it back, he didn't, he said he was taking it to the TOC. My CO had already gone to the TOC, speaking with the S3, XO, and squadron Sergeants Major and was basically getting a gruff response from the Sergeants Major. I would like to say that day would have been a bad day for the OpsSGM, the horse he rode in on would have been ****ed, IG, Congressional, JAG etc. All the Whilst we only finished the 1/3 of our capstone field problem.

Sometimes I think men lose their sense of respect for people when they pin SGM. Because if we want to play the game, he assaulted multiple Soldiers by doing that. At a minimum he created multiple rungs of bull**** and threw the last piece of straw to the bundle.

 

[Marine0311]

This ended up being the product, I used Teufel's sled dogs piece in here:

http://op-for.com/2014/04/how-to-break-an-officer.html

An update to the LT my CO was talking to in that class, my wingman:

He'd been treated pretty bad by the previous CO and was really a work horse. He's a good leader and loves his soldiers, but like I said he's been treated pretty bad since he got here and things only really changed when our CO took command.

Well yesterday we were packing up our kit, stowing it in our trucks, and preparing to go home from the squadron forward assembly area. Our CO and 1SG saw the squadron Sergeants Major smoking his driver for not wearing any gloves, there had been no guidance for us to be in kit as we were going home. Our CO and 1SG said get in kit as a pre-emptive move.

Well, as the information was being pushed down the operations Sergeants Major came up on our position, my CO had attempted to talk to him. And he just went down a platoons line and started grabbing patrol caps off of Soldiers' heads. He grabbed this LT's and ripped it off. He asked him what he was doing, ordered him to give it back, he didn't, he said he was taking it to the TOC. My CO had already gone to the TOC, speaking with the S3, XO, and squadron Sergeants Major and was basically getting a gruff response from the Sergeants Major. I would like to say that day would have been a bad day for the OpsSGM, the horse he rode in on would have been ****ed, IG, Congressional, JAG etc. All the Whilst we only finished the 1/3 of our capstone field problem.

Sometimes I think men lose their sense of respect for people when they pin SGM. Because if we want to play the game, he assaulted multiple Soldiers by doing that. At a minimum he created multiple rungs of bull**** and threw the last piece of straw to the bundle.

WTF?

 

[DA SWO]

This ended up being the product, I used Teufel's sled dogs piece in here:

http://op-for.com/2014/04/how-to-break-an-officer.html

An update to the LT my CO was talking to in that class, my wingman:

He'd been treated pretty bad by the previous CO and was really a work horse. He's a good leader and loves his soldiers, but like I said he's been treated pretty bad since he got here and things only really changed when our CO took command.

Well yesterday we were packing up our kit, stowing it in our trucks, and preparing to go home from the squadron forward assembly area. Our CO and 1SG saw the squadron Sergeants Major smoking his driver for not wearing any gloves, there had been no guidance for us to be in kit as we were going home. Our CO and 1SG said get in kit as a pre-emptive move.

Well, as the information was being pushed down the operations Sergeants Major came up on our position, my CO had attempted to talk to him. And he just went down a platoons line and started grabbing patrol caps off of Soldiers' heads. He grabbed this LT's and ripped it off. He asked him what he was doing, ordered him to give it back, he didn't, he said he was taking it to the TOC. My CO had already gone to the TOC, speaking with the S3, XO, and squadron Sergeants Major and was basically getting a gruff response from the Sergeants Major. I would like to say that day would have been a bad day for the OpsSGM, the horse he rode in on would have been ****ed, IG, Congressional, JAG etc. All the Whilst we only finished the 1/3 of our capstone field problem.

Sometimes I think men lose their sense of respect for people when they pin SGM. Because if we want to play the game, he assaulted multiple Soldiers by doing that. At a minimum he created multiple rungs of bull**** and threw the last piece of straw to the bundle.

The Lt needs to file a DA Level Congressional, and say the Bn Cdr allows the SGM to go hands-on in violation of the UCMJ.

Anyone who witnessed the event needs to file a DA Level IG Complaint. SGM and Bn Cdr can then start planning their post-military careers.

 

[Brill]

This ended up being the product, I used Teufel's sled dogs piece in here:

http://op-for.com/2014/04/how-to-break-an-officer.html

An update to the LT my CO was talking to in that class, my wingman:

He'd been treated pretty bad by the previous CO and was really a work horse. He's a good leader and loves his soldiers, but like I said he's been treated pretty bad since he got here and things only really changed when our CO took command.

Well yesterday we were packing up our kit, stowing it in our trucks, and preparing to go home from the squadron forward assembly area. Our CO and 1SG saw the squadron Sergeants Major smoking his driver for not wearing any gloves, there had been no guidance for us to be in kit as we were going home. Our CO and 1SG said get in kit as a pre-emptive move.

Well, as the information was being pushed down the operations Sergeants Major came up on our position, my CO had attempted to talk to him. And he just went down a platoons line and started grabbing patrol caps off of Soldiers' heads. He grabbed this LT's and ripped it off. He asked him what he was doing, ordered him to give it back, he didn't, he said he was taking it to the TOC. My CO had already gone to the TOC, speaking with the S3, XO, and squadron Sergeants Major and was basically getting a gruff response from the Sergeants Major. I would like to say that day would have been a bad day for the OpsSGM, the horse he rode in on would have been ****ed, IG, Congressional, JAG etc. All the Whilst we only finished the 1/3 of our capstone field problem.

Sometimes I think men lose their sense of respect for people when they pin SGM. Because if we want to play the game, he assaulted multiple Soldiers by doing that. At a minimum he created multiple rungs of bull**** and threw the last piece of straw to the bundle.

Ha! A little "go fuck yourself SGM Sobel! I'll see you at OUR Court Martial" would have been most appropriate.

At the very minimum, you've seen firsthand the direct effects of toxic leadership.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

I knocked another NCO across the platoon office for snatching my PC out of my cargo pocket (thought he was being funny) the day our new PSG was reporting in. I fully expected an Article 15 afterwards, instead I got a stern warning and watched two E7's verbally crush an E5.

 

[Mac_NZ]

OK why the hell did your CO (a Capt/Maj I assume) not order the SGM to stand fast there and then. I don't know your UCMJ but those actions (using violence towards a superior and disobeying a lawful command) here would have you placed under close arrest on the spot.

If your SQN HQ accepts that kind of shit happening they need to be busted back 2 ranks or fired. There's a reason we have Officers and a large part of it is to stop NCOs doing illegal and/or psycho shit.

 

[pardus]

This ended up being the product, I used Teufel's sled dogs piece in here:

http://op-for.com/2014/04/how-to-break-an-officer.html

An update to the LT my CO was talking to in that class, my wingman:

He'd been treated pretty bad by the previous CO and was really a work horse. He's a good leader and loves his soldiers, but like I said he's been treated pretty bad since he got here and things only really changed when our CO took command.

Well yesterday we were packing up our kit, stowing it in our trucks, and preparing to go home from the squadron forward assembly area. Our CO and 1SG saw the squadron Sergeants Major smoking his driver for not wearing any gloves, there had been no guidance for us to be in kit as we were going home. Our CO and 1SG said get in kit as a pre-emptive move.

Well, as the information was being pushed down the operations Sergeants Major came up on our position, my CO had attempted to talk to him. And he just went down a platoons line and started grabbing patrol caps off of Soldiers' heads. He grabbed this LT's and ripped it off. He asked him what he was doing, ordered him to give it back, he didn't, he said he was taking it to the TOC. My CO had already gone to the TOC, speaking with the S3, XO, and squadron Sergeants Major and was basically getting a gruff response from the Sergeants Major. I would like to say that day would have been a bad day for the OpsSGM, the horse he rode in on would have been ****ed, IG, Congressional, JAG etc. All the Whilst we only finished the 1/3 of our capstone field problem.

Sometimes I think men lose their sense of respect for people when they pin SGM. Because if we want to play the game, he assaulted multiple Soldiers by doing that. At a minimum he created multiple rungs of bull**** and threw the last piece of straw to the bundle.

One of those soldier's should have punched that SGM right in the face. Self defence.
Most SGMs are a waste of space, enforcing "standards" like haircuts, reflective belts etc... while ignoring real problems.
There are too many fuckwits in the NCO Corps in this man's Army IMO.

 

[BloodStripe]

This entire thread depresses me. Here is the thing. No matter how "hard" we have it as officers I promise you our enlisted have it ten times worse. I had a SEAL Chief tell me once that enlisted men are like sled dogs (random story-I once did a guest stint as a land warfare instructor for NSW at Billy Makin). They will feel the bite of the cold and sting of the lash as they pull the sled to the finish line. They will rest for a moment, thinking their job is done, when a new asshole jumps into the sled, admires the novelty of it, and starts to whip the pups anew. This cycle continues as the sled dog's hair starts to grey, his hide toughens and he realizes through hard learned lessons how to best win the race. Meanwhile the sled driver remains the same age, often fails to listen to his sled dogs and only grows weary from cracking the whip. A task which exhausts him no doubt as he can only handle two to three years in his position as his sled dogs sludge through decade after decade of operational service. Every once in a great while however, the sled dogs will look back in confusion at an empty sled...only to realize that the sled driver is running ahead of them, pulling his harness with no complaint as he suffers through every difficulty and challenge they experience without complaint.

As officers and leaders we often have to suffer through poor leadership above us. Guess who your subordinates see? You. That's it. Hopefully you are the line between sanity and insanity for them. If we lose sight of this fact we can become discouraged, internalize and look inward at our own problems. Being an officer is all about being a servant leader. Learn to serve the men who follow your orders. See what a difference you hopefully make in their lives. This should help you refocus on what is important. Guess why your superiors suck?? Because all the good officers got out. If you get out then you are perpetuating the cycle of failed leadership through your absence. Look below and not above and you will find the answers you seek.

If you ever choose to write a book on leadership (hell anything for that matter), I would be the first in line to buy and read it. Your writing technique is very effective for getting a message across and leaves me wanting more.