Iraq and ISIS Discussion

[Dame]

CJCS General Dunford: We have not contained ISIL currently.

But, but...the President said they were contained!

Yeah, to this planet.

ETA:

U.S. Ally Accused of Abusing ISIS Prisoners

OMG. Cannot stop laughing at this.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

Since when does anyone from any administration tell the truth?

 

[Blizzard]

Iraqis think the U.S. is in cahoots with the Islamic State, and it is hurting the war

BAIJI, Iraq — On the front lines of the battle against the Islamic State, suspicion of the United States runs deep. Iraqi fighters say they have all seen the videos purportedly showing U.S. helicopters airdropping weapons to the militants, and many claim they have friends and relatives who have witnessed similar instances of collusion.

Ordinary people also have seen the videos, heard the stories and reached the same conclusion — one that might seem absurd to Americans but is widely believed among Iraqis — that the United States is supporting the Islamic State for a variety of pernicious reasons that have to do with asserting U.S. control over Iraq, the wider Middle East and, perhaps, its oil.

“It is not in doubt,” said Mustafa Saadi, who says his friend saw U.S. helicopters delivering bottled water to Islamic State positions. He is a commander in one of the Shiite militias that last month helped push the militants out of the oil refinery near Baiji in northern Iraq alongside the Iraqi army.

The Islamic State is “almost finished,” he said. “They are weak. If only America would stop supporting them, we could defeat them in days.”

Uh huh. Sigh.

I try to take reports like this with a grain of salt but for crying out loud already... What's our strategy here again?

 

[jjgli]

That's like planting a bomb, setting a timer, then bein like: if a bomb were to happen to go off, the result would be disastrous.

 

[AWP]

I was once very supportive of the Iraq war, then not, but now with the clarity of hindsight I think it was the right war, at the wrong time, and with the wrong strategy. It hurt us in Afghanistan and negated any leverage we had with North Korea or Iran over their nuke programs We found WMD's but not THE WMD's or circumstances we used to go in. It massively hurt our credibility, but was also inevitable and necessary, just not then and not how we waged the war.

At this point it is futile to argue over it, let the historians do that, but our job should be to recover. We can assign blame and gnash our teeth in peacetime. You don't point fingers when men are dying; that's for peacetime.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

I think our biggest failure in Iraq was dismantling the government infrastructure and trying to rebuild it. Dabbling with a tribal political system we didn't clearly understand and attempting to pick and choose the leaders.

As for why we went in and if it was right or wrong, I think it was right, just poorly planned. I think the exit strategy used was foolish, and I believe that strategy is the direct result of IS.

 

[Gunz]

I think our biggest failure in Iraq was dismantling the government infrastructure and trying to rebuild it. Dabbling with a tribal political system we didn't clearly understand and attempting to pick and choose the leaders.

As for why we went in and if it was right or wrong, I think it was right, just poorly planned. I think the exit strategy used was foolish, and I believe that strategy is the direct result of IS.

You guys killed a lot of people who needed to die. You rid the world of a sadistic piece of shit and his cohorts. Nothing wrong with that. And nothing wrong with planting the seeds of democracy in a region (with the exception of Israel) that's never known it. You couldn't have fucked up the Middle East any more than it already was...and is. And the sacrifice may yet reap benefits in the future.

 

[DA SWO]

I was once very supportive of the Iraq war, then not, but now with the clarity of hindsight I think it was the right war, at the wrong time, and with the wrong strategy. It hurt us in Afghanistan and negated any leverage we had with North Korea or Iran over their nuke programs We found WMD's but not THE WMD's or circumstances we used to go in. It massively hurt our credibility, but was also inevitable and necessary, just not then and not how we waged the war.

At this point it is futile to argue over it, let the historians do that, but our job should be to recover. We can assign blame and gnash our teeth in peacetime. You don't point fingers when men are dying; that's for peacetime.

Agree, a large segment (majority) of the Afghan population was happy to see us, and had high hopes.
Rumsfeld limiting assets to fight Iraq cost us the Strategic and Tactical advantage.
We compounded the problem by not taking the opium fields out, not attempting to limit the corruption (stealing of tax dollars).
We should have gone in, blasted the shit out of everything and left; I don't say this to be cute; but we adopted a strategy of not winning a winnable war.
Rumsfeld obsession with reform turned this into a decades long quagmire.

I think our biggest failure in Iraq was dismantling the government infrastructure and trying to rebuild it. Dabbling with a tribal political system we didn't clearly understand and attempting to pick and choose the leaders.

As for why we went in and if it was right or wrong, I think it was right, just poorly planned. I think the exit strategy used was foolish, and I believe that strategy is the direct result of IS.

Agree, we did not have a post-hostilities plan and it showed.

You guys killed a lot of people who needed to die. You rid the world of a sadistic piece of shit and his cohorts. Nothing wrong with that. And nothing wrong with planting the seeds of democracy in a region (with the exception of Israel) that's never known it. You couldn't have fucked up the Middle East any more than it already was...and is. And the sacrifice may yet reap benefits in the future.

We could have waited 2-4 years and still had the same (or better) outcome.

 

[AWP]

This is an awesome nugget of commentary:

UK jets hit ISIS oilfield as Typhoons fly first missions - CNN.com

In a statement on the Iraqi Prime Minister's Facebook page -- apparently the new method governments use to communicate with each other -- Iraq called on Turkey to withdraw immediately from the Iraqi territory. The statement said the Turkish troops, accompanied by tanks and weaponry, had entered the country without authorization from Iraqi authorities.

Hilarious. Who'd think I would agree with CNN's editorializing? As to the second part, the coalition and the Iraqi gov't gave the Turks permission to enter Iraqi airspace and bomb the Kurds...notionally people who are Iraqi citizens. We even carved out "Turkey only" airspace over Iraq. Now Iraq's "surprised" Turkish troops are "illegally" on Iraqi soil? C'mon man...

 

[Brill]

I was once very supportive of the Iraq war, then not, but now with the clarity of hindsight I think it was the right war, at the wrong time, and with the wrong strategy. It hurt us in Afghanistan and negated any leverage we had with North Korea or Iran over their nuke programs We found WMD's but not THE WMD's or circumstances we used to go in. It massively hurt our credibility, but was also inevitable and necessary, just not then and not how we waged the war.

At this point it is futile to argue over it, let the historians do that, but our job should be to recover. We can assign blame and gnash our teeth in peacetime. You don't point fingers when men are dying; that's for peacetime.

Sadly we haven't learned the lessons of regime change, which worked in Japan and Germany but has failed in Iraq, Libya, etc and apparently we're going down the same path in Syria.

Honestly what the fuck did we think would happen when we dissolved the Iraqi security apparatus? We had a commission look into 9/11 for "lessons learned...why not post-invasion too?

 

[Brill]

New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie rejected the idea that Muslims would be offended by the use of specific terminology to describe the threat.

"Now when you say radical Islamic jihadist, they understand, the rest of the Muslim community understands," Christie said on "Face the Nation."

But Clinton said on ABC News "This Week" that throwing around such terms actually helped the extremists.

"It helps to create this clash of civilizations that is actually a recruiting tool for ISIS and other radical jihadists who use this as a way of saying, 'We are in a war against the West -- you must join us,'" she said.

Obama has taken a similar line.

"We must never accept the premise that they put forward because it is a lie," Obama said in February.

"Nor should we grant these terrorists the religious legitimacy that they seek. They are not religious leaders. They are terrorists."

The arrogance of this President and his staff are unimaginable.

Mr. Baghdadi is said to have a doctorate in Islamic studies from a university in Baghdad, and was a mosque preacher in his hometown, Samarra.

 

[Brill]

^^^^
This tells me there is actually some (probably a metric fuck-ton) of truth to the analyst VS CENTCOM leadership censoring of reporting.

 

[Brill]

The arrogance of this President and his staff are unimaginable.

Mr. Baghdadi is said to have a doctorate in Islamic studies from a university in Baghdad, and was a mosque preacher in his hometown, Samarra.

I know it's heresy to quote one's post but I was wrong. Hillary's dumbassary has Obama beat by a mile. To think that all we need to do to stop the jihad against the West is to stop using terms like "radical Islam" is kindergarten logic at best: if we don't make them mad at us, they won't fight us.

Clinton explains why she won't say 'radical Islam' - CNNPolitics.com

Then again, is she wrong? I bet IS wouldn't attack Americans if we implemented Sharia law...and I'm sure they will OK with a female President. Whabbi women drive, vote, go out in public alone, so why not become POTUS too???

Jesus, I wish she would just be honest and admit how much $$$ Islamic charities have "donated" to her campaign.

 

[Etype]

I think a good application of a lesson learned from Iraq would be to deal with IS, but leave Assad in power.

If he brings some semblance of control over the country, it's better than the alternative.

 

[Gunz]

I think a good application of a lesson learned from Iraq would be to deal with IS, but leave Assad in power.

If he brings some semblance of control over the country, it's better than the alternative.

Terrific idea because whoever eventually tackles IS on the ground--and I believe that will have to happen--will kill half and scatter the rest like cockroaches who'll reemerge somewhere else and/or go guerilla. "Defeat" IS and you inherit a clusterfuck that could tie you up for years. But...wouldn't it have to be the Russians who could make this happen? I can't see the US or NATO buying into the plan.

 

[Rapid]

Short of something like a chemical attack in Europe or the US, I don't see any NATO countries going in on the ground (outside of special operations) in the near future...

 

[Brill]

Congress has a field day with how the war is being fought.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles...an-opposition-scuttles-no-fly-zone?int=a14709

We have not recommended it because the political situation on the ground and the potential for miscalculation and loss of American life in the air in an attempt to defend the no-fly zone don't warrant the no-fly zone."

The response by Selva, the second-highest military officer in the country and chief adviser to President Barack Obama, visibly angered some members of the committee, particularly its chairman, Sen. John McCain.

"General, I must say, that's one of the most embarrassing statements I've heard from a uniformed military officer," said the Arizona Republican, who has been one of the most vocal proponents of a no-fly zone since the beginning of the Syrian civil war. "That we are worried about Syria's and Russia's reaction to saving the lives of thousands and thousands of Syrians who are being barrel bombed and massacred. So far, 240,000 of them."

"Remarkable performance," McCain said sarcastically.

 

[DA SWO]

McCain is an idiot.
We had UN resolution to allow previous no-fly zones.
Declaring Syria a no-fly zone directly challenges Putin, and effectively declares war on Syria.
McCain, of all Congressional Critters, should know better.

 

[Red Flag 1]

McCain is an idiot.
We had UN resolution to allow previous no-fly zones.
Declaring Syria a no-fly zone directly challenges Putin, and effectively declares war on Syria.
McCain, of all Congressional Critters, should know better.

We learned who McCain is when he gave the White House to obama.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

I think a good application of a lesson learned from Iraq would be to deal with IS, but leave Assad in power.

If he brings some semblance of control over the country, it's better than the alternative.

I agree for the most part, Assad is a POS and should be replaced. However, now is definitely not the time for that. Syria is so badly war-torn at this point, it will need some formation of what used to be normal to get things somewhat back on track at the conclusion of the civil war.

Personally, I think the Syrian government and the rebel forces should attempt a political agreement, to deal with IS, and after which, give a time line for a free election, that Assad is not on the ballet. If Assad would agree to terms like that, the rebel force would most likely agree as well at this point. If that agreement could happen, a joint coalition could seriously attack IS on the ground and route them out.

Syria is still going to be a mess for many years to come, but if they could stop the infighting under a political agreement long enough to squash IS, I think it would set them on a path to reforms.