Islam: What the West Needs to Know (Docu)

TH15

Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2010
Messages
286
Location
Michigan

I just got done watching this thing, its sort of like the documentary in the sticky. It's very, very dry (mainly just interviews), but gave a very detailed history on Islam and the violence and domination that has come with it since its inception. I found a few things in here quite disturbing, such as the prophet Muhammad personally executing up to 900 people.

I think it does a good job of taking today's Islam and comparing it with previous/ancient generations of Islam. Certainly a lot of similarities.

One of the interviewees is a former PLO operative who converted to Christianity.
 

HOLLiS

Verified Military
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
1,509
Location
Where it is wet, wet, and more wet
People make any religion what it is. There are a lot of variations to Islam, as there are with the other religions of the world. Strong adherence to any faith is a minority. There are a lot of people who are members of any religion out of convenience or in name only. It is not a black and white subject, anything with people in it is convoluted at best.
 

pardus

Verified Military
Joined
Sep 7, 2006
Messages
10,168
That is a great doco.

Islam is inherently evil, we are just lucky that most Muslims don't follow the teachings of Islam to the letter.
 

JohnnyBoyUSMC

Click, click, boom.
Verified Military
Joined
Mar 7, 2009
Messages
659
Location
the bat cave
All religions got those seeds of evil in em, and sadly man's wish to believe in the divine or those that say they speak for the divine clouds their minds far too often. I've met many a good Muslim, and many a bad one. Perrsonally it's the uber right wing Christian fundamentalists that scare me more these days lol! Should watch "Jesus Camp" and see if you don't disagree with me. You could put those kids and preachers in man dresses and replace their bible talk with Koran talk and you'd not be able to tell the difference, truly scary.
 

AWP

Formerly Known as Freefalling
SOF Support
Joined
Sep 8, 2006
Messages
16,414
Location
Not Afghanistan
All religions got those seeds of evil in em, and sadly man's wish to believe in the divine or those that say they speak for the divine clouds their minds far too often. I've met many a good Muslim, and many a bad one. Perrsonally it's the uber right wing Christian fundamentalists that scare me more these days lol! Should watch "Jesus Camp" and see if you don't disagree with me. You could put those kids and preachers in man dresses and replace their bible talk with Koran talk and you'd not be able to tell the difference, truly scary.

While I have no use for religion, I must have missed all of those right-wing Christians who are strapping explosives to themselves and killing women and children by the scores, cutting off heads, trying to kill me and those like me on a daily basis, placing rape victims in jail, having sex with boys and animals, etc.
 

JohnnyBoyUSMC

Click, click, boom.
Verified Military
Joined
Mar 7, 2009
Messages
659
Location
the bat cave
We all missed it, happened a lot in the middle ages lol! No I agree freefalling, Christians aren't doing that here, and I have no use for religion either, just making the point that every religion has its nut jobs, though Islam deff has more of em who are willing to go boom in the name of Allah. Sad thing is a lot of it is from ignorance and the plying of easily manipulated minds by the shot callers that gets plenty of em on the band wagon.
 

AWP

Formerly Known as Freefalling
SOF Support
Joined
Sep 8, 2006
Messages
16,414
Location
Not Afghanistan
We all missed it, happened a lot in the middle ages lol!

Not picking on you, Johnny, just a minor rant along these lines:

I am sick and tired of comparing XXXXX to "back in Medieval times" or whatever. Shit, "back in the day" my family owned slaves, so if we're going to use the "They did it hundreds of years ago so that justifies YYYY doing it now" argument then I know how I can get out of doing yardwork...

"A thousands years ago...." Please, a thousand years ago people thought that the sun revolved around the earth and even motherfarking Galileo ran afoul of the Catholic Church over it. This centuries old bullshit justification for any group's actions is more fucked up than a football bat. I love history, I love my family's history, but I don't cling to it and citing events from hundreds or even thousands of years ago to justify one's actions today is just stupid.
 

JohnnyBoyUSMC

Click, click, boom.
Verified Military
Joined
Mar 7, 2009
Messages
659
Location
the bat cave
In agreement with ya Freefalling, and know your not picking one me, just using history as a context to show that religious, especially the uneducated and fanatic, can be pushed to do all sorts of horrible shit, hence why i'm not a religious man anymore. Hell one can go back far enough and blame a germ on their problems. The video i've watched and is informative, and one can do almost the same thing to nearly any religious text. Guess my point is, religion makes people crazy, and kill all of em that fuck with me and mine.
 

pardus

Verified Military
Joined
Sep 7, 2006
Messages
10,168
In agreement with ya Freefalling, and know your not picking one me, just using history as a context to show that religious, especially the uneducated and fanatic, can be pushed to do all sorts of horrible shit, .

What you're missing is that Christianity (I'm not Christian) teaches peace and love and obedience etc... When Christians have gone nuts in the past and used their religion to cause harm it is generally against what the bible teaches.
Islam however is guided by the Koran which orders Muslims to convert or kill every single person on the planet. It also advocates having sex with children. This is Islamic law that Muslims are obliged to do.

So there is a huge difference between the two religions in that regard. No comparison.
 

Manolito

Lewis B. Puller for todays problems!
Verified Military
Joined
Aug 4, 2009
Messages
762
Location
Milford CA Pop 72
If the four of you met in Berkely California and dressed in some odd way and stood on the corner of University avenue and preached about anything call it the revival of the carrot you would have followers within minutes and people preaching the carrot within a week. Some people need a entity to direct them down the path of life and if you tell them they are touched by the special carrot it would scare you what they would do for you. We apparently have been killing each other since the cave days. Come to think of it we have gotten pretty good at that one part of history. I think there is a very strong connection from what islamm does and what Hitler did. Hell today you can have the moral being of an animal and you are accepted. However if you smoke those evil ciggs they want to ban you from the park.
Free I hear your rant and respect it. In my thoughts there are a lot of examples today we don't need to go back more than 75 years.
 

Marauder06

Intel Enabler
Verified SOF
Joined
Sep 9, 2006
Messages
11,191
Location
CONUS
We all missed it, happened a lot in the middle ages lol! No I agree freefalling, Christians aren't doing that here, and I have no use for religion either, just making the point that every religion has its nut jobs, though Islam deff has more of em who are willing to go boom in the name of Allah. Sad thing is a lot of it is from ignorance and the plying of easily manipulated minds by the shot callers that gets plenty of em on the band wagon.

Then why even bring it up? If Islam is bad, then it's bad; it's not "less bad" because of the shortcomings of other religions. That kind of apologist and moral-equivalizing behavior is very dangerous.
 

alibi

Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2011
Messages
72
Location
Florida
What you're missing is that Christianity (I'm not Christian) teaches peace and love and obedience etc... When Christians have gone nuts in the past and used their religion to cause harm it is generally against what the bible teaches.
Islam however is guided by the Koran which orders Muslims to convert or kill every single person on the planet. It also advocates having sex with children. This is Islamic law that Muslims are obliged to do.

So there is a huge difference between the two religions in that regard. No comparison.
Unless you wanna throw out the Old Testament and parts of the New, there are multiple instances in the Bible where the use of genocide is explicitly endorsed. One of the most prominent stories in the entire work is about a guy killing his son because a voice in his head told him to, but stopping when another voice told him to stop. There are verses which argue that slaves be obedient to their masters. There are verses that tell women to submit themselves to their husbands.

Are there good theological explanations for the above? Yes, I believe so. Could the same be said for Islam? Probably.

I guess, speaking for myself, that I don't like to label ideologies "good" or "evil". Right and wrong, sure.
 

QC

1 CDO
Verified SOF
Joined
Jan 15, 2008
Messages
1,784
Location
ADEGVSWGV
Unless you wanna throw out the Old Testament and parts of the New, there are multiple instances in the Bible where the use of genocide is explicitly endorsed. One of the most prominent stories in the entire work is about a guy killing his son because a voice in his head told him to, but stopping when another voice told him to stop. There are verses which argue that slaves be obedient to their masters. There are verses that tell women to submit themselves to their husbands.

Are there good theological explanations for the above? Yes, I believe so. Could the same be said for Islam? Probably.

I guess, speaking for myself, that I don't like to label ideologies "good" or "evil". Right and wrong, sure.
I guess you're referring to Abraham here, a common denominator in both. To me, the differences are basic on two points. Firstly,as I've observed, you open yourself to accept Jesus into you life as compared to submission to God, two different paths. Second, the Koran teaches that Islam is superior and so are it's adherents. I can't recall Christian religions of any hue teaching that one.
 

JohnnyBoyUSMC

Click, click, boom.
Verified Military
Joined
Mar 7, 2009
Messages
659
Location
the bat cave
this is EXACTLY why I prefer to not argue religion or politics with people lol! look everyone brings good points to the table, and there is no one argument to win em all (yes lord of the rings analogy give me crap for it if ya want), simple point is there are always those on both sides of every religion, good or bad. i'm not being an apoligist or morality equalizer about anything Marauder, again just using history as a context to show that evil has been done in the name of religion many times, thats all. there is no moral equalizing going on, I just simply don't condemn a entire race or religion as "evil" because of some dusty words in books or the actions of a minority of that sect or religion.
 

alibi

Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2011
Messages
72
Location
Florida
I guess you're referring to Abraham here, a common denominator in both. To me, the differences are basic on two points. Firstly,as I've observed, you open yourself to accept Jesus into you life as compared to submission to God, two different paths. Second, the Koran teaches that Islam is superior and so are it's adherents. I can't recall Christian religions of any hue teaching that one.
I think it comes down more to semantics; I can recall going to various Christians services where the term "Submission to God" (Plus or minus some adjectives) has been used quite frequently.
Secondly, I would argue that if one believes Christianity (Or Islam, or Hinduism, or Judaism) one believes that it is a superior belief system. As to the adherents being better...I think it depends on who you talk to.
 

TH15

Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2010
Messages
286
Location
Michigan
The only problems I have with religion come from the higher ups in that particular religion. I find that they overwhelmingly corrupt what is meant to be a very positive thing for a lot of people, including myself.

I just wonder what the general consensus is in the Middle East in regards to your "average" Muslim. Based on the recent elections, it seems to me that the average Muslim in the M.E and North Africa adheres to the kind of Islam that we're all talking about here.

Documentaries like this really make me question Ron Paul's (Sorry Free) ideology that our foreign policy is the root cause of Islamic terrorism.
 

AWP

Formerly Known as Freefalling
SOF Support
Joined
Sep 8, 2006
Messages
16,414
Location
Not Afghanistan
The only problems I have with religion come from the higher ups in that particular religion. I find that they overwhelmingly corrupt what is meant to be a very positive thing for a lot of people, including myself.

I just wonder what the general consensus is in the Middle East in regards to your "average" Muslim. Based on the recent elections, it seems to me that the average Muslim in the M.E and North Africa adheres to the kind of Islam that we're all talking about here.

Documentaries like this really make me question Ron Paul's (Sorry Free) ideology that our foreign policy is the root cause of Islamic terrorism.

I'd like to touch upon a few things in this post so I'm glad you mentioned them.

Take any insurgency, poorly run company, or relationship where domestic violence is present...in short, just about any type of conflict you can think of. In all of them there is a certain amount of passivity by one or more of the "sides" or populace. You'll have those people who oppose the negative acts taking place, but they stick their heads in the sand and ignore them. Some may resist, but most will just act like nothign is wrong. That may be out of apathy or fear or a pragmatic view of the situation, but whatever the reasons or causes, there is a passive element involved.

That is how the strong prey upon the weak. That is how a minority can control a majority. When the masses fail to reject the extreme elements of their organization they've become as guilty as the extremists themselves. Morally, ethically, or legally, they are playing a role in perpetuating those negative behaviors. So whether or not the mass of Muslims agree with the extremists is irrelevant to me, they support them and that is aiding and abetting in our court system.

With regard to Ron Paul, he is right and he is wrong. I think he's oversimplified the root cause of Islamic terrorism. While he may be correct on some levels, he's way off base on others. Besides, even IF our FP caused islamic terrorism, in how many instances did we have other options? UBL and company continuously cited our presence in Saudi Arabia as their motivation; whether that is their true belief or just an excuse doesn't matter. They cite coups like Iran's in 53, but neglect to mention the UK's role and neglect to mention that essentially once the Shah was punted in 79 that we were equal in Iran. They overlook other equally disasterous moments in American foreign policy and the fact that the wronged in those cases didn't rise up and start sliting throats. Some people just need to hate and I think that's part of what we have here.

Humans tend to oversimplify anyway. In US history, the Revolutionary and Civil Wars were about "taxation without representation" and "slavery" respectively, right? Of course not, they were much more complex than that. Ron Paul is dumbing down his reasons, or maybe he believes them, and in either case I'm insulted or amazed that someone who claims to be smart is actually a window-licker.

Besides, the GWOT is about 1000 years overdue in my opinion, not because of our religion or politics, but because of the Islamic religion and/ or politics.
 

JohnnyBoyUSMC

Click, click, boom.
Verified Military
Joined
Mar 7, 2009
Messages
659
Location
the bat cave
Yea, totally agree with Freefalling on all of it. I'm not one to be like "all muslims are evil" but that passive "not my problem" attitude most of em have drives me insane. The fact that Islam is both a religion AND a political system that cannot be separated makes it inherently dangerous, as we all know mixing politics and religion always has bad consequences for most everyone involved save for the "true believers". Islam is a religion based on militant dominance started by basically a warlord who "heard the voice of God". Again, history. Is that to say we'll see the rise of militant Christianity like in the dark days? Doubt it, but anything is possible I suppose.....I mean Rick Santorum and Mitt Romney wanna ban all porn if they get elected because of their sense of Christian duty, so we COULD be in trouble lol!

Are all Muslims evil people who wish death on us all? No a lot are simply living their lives. Does their religion tell em to do so? Yea, just about every religion has that context somewhere in it, just more prevalent at the time because it's Muslims that are doing so much in the sense of murder for God, which is itself a stupid concept. Does history teach us that Islam has mainly been spread through conquering of others, and that it is what is taught to them to do? Yep! Is the GWOT overdue? You bet your ass. It has been a long time coming, though with budget cuts, troop drawdowns, and a sense of risk aversion that the current political establishment is starting to show, it could be at our shores if we don't keep the pressure up. Hence why I buy ammo and plenty of it.
 
Top