Islam: What the West Needs to Know (Docu)

Whole post.
That was an awesome post, thank you. I never really thought of how UBL and his followers do single out the United States. However, the UK is experiencing a growing Islamist threat.

Islam is certainly (can be) very violent and I think Americans get caught up in the American brand of Islam, which is a completely different animal than Middle Eastern/N. African/Indonesion Islam. I think its mostly the media's fault and people like Harry Reid who go on the Senate floor and tell stories of American Muslims who are good people. That's not to say they aren't good people, but the fact is they are in America and not in a position to practice the religion the way it was intended to be practiced, perhaps. The more I get into reading about the Koran and the Hadith and the Surah, the more it seems, to me at least, that the people we call radical aren't really radical at all- they're doing exactly what these books tell them to do.
 
Their fundamentalists, the very defenition of by the book, so if anything their the most Puritan, true practicers of the faith. I've heard of the UK problems with Islam, especially their ability to basically strong arm the justice system to allow certain courts to let communities practice sharia law, The infamous finsbury park mosque, and so forth. It's a few years old now but read "londistan", good book.

The difference with muslims in America and with the rest of the world is that many choose to accept and adapt to American society instead of the other way around, though there are plenty who would wish they could do what's happening in the UK, CAIR anyone (hate those fuckers).

Is there a Islamic boogie man hiding behind every corner? Nah, but AQ isn't defeated just yet, and the surge of wins for islamitists parties in many countries from the Arab spring should have us all worried. Here at home, until things start blowing up or the shores are being invaded by the hoardes, I'll worry about the Christian fundamentalists who wanna ban porn, protest military funerals, tell us all we're going to hell, and bang on ur door at 6am asking if you've found Jesus :p
 
CAIR can go fuck themselves. I know a lot of Muslims in America practice Sharia in their household. No problem with that. However, I live 30 minutes from Dearborn, MI- the city with the highest concentration of Muslims in the country. (Ironically, a Holocaust Museum is nearby :-o). Recently the state tried to pass a law banning Sharia law here and the fuckers went nuts. I have a problem with that. I mean, I can see why their upset because they probably view it as an attack on their religion. But they know damn well they live in America. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

In regards to the UK, I've read where there's places where Sharia is fully in place and law enforcement just stays out of the way out of fear of retaliation.
Here's a Brit's recent take on it:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2819217/posts

And here's what I was talking about in regards to Sharia in UK cities:
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/you...d-zone-uk-group-to-wage-islamic-law-campaign/
 
Unless you wanna throw out the Old Testament and parts of the New, there are multiple instances in the Bible where the use of genocide is explicitly endorsed. One of the most prominent stories in the entire work is about a guy killing his son because a voice in his head told him to, but stopping when another voice told him to stop. There are verses which argue that slaves be obedient to their masters. There are verses that tell women to submit themselves to their husbands.

Are there good theological explanations for the above? Yes, I believe so. Could the same be said for Islam? Probably.

I guess, speaking for myself, that I don't like to label ideologies "good" or "evil". Right and wrong, sure.

The New Testament supersedes the old in Christianity, and I specifically said Christianity. Show me where in the New Testament it advocates genocide.
 
Hate the sharia law crap, hell wish I could make up a religion and enforce my own moral and ethical code in my neighborhood then scream religious persecution when the cops shut me down :p
 
The New Testament supersedes the old in Christianity, and I specifically said Christianity. Show me where in the New Testament it advocates genocide.

That's correct. There is no equivalent of the New Testament in Islam, even though some will try to say that the later hadith supercede the earlier passages of the Koran. It's simply not practiced. And since most serious studiers and practitioners of Islam will tell you that
the "gates" to further interpretation of Islam are closed, then its unlikely that a revisionist, truly peaceful version of Islam will come about anytime soon, and the entire world will continue to pay the price for it.

I would also like to add to what Pardus said that it's predictable that any discussion of Islam degenerates into finger-pointing towards other religions, particularly Christianity, because that's a typical device of the uneducated and the apologists. Can't argue the fundamental premise? Admit nothing, deny everything, and make counteraccusations. If attacking Christianity doesn't work (and when you're debating people like Freefalling, Pardus, and me, who are well-educated on both Islam and Christianity but who consider ourselves neither Christian nor Muslim, it never will work), then it's time to roll out the "-ists" (i.e. "racists") or the "-phobes" (e.g. "islamophobe"). That almost always works to shut down the debate. It's very hard to have a meaningful debate about Islam because most people aren't really educated on it or people are scared to talk about it because of the very real physical and/or career-related consequences of speaking out.

Look, I used to buy into the "religion of peace" argument too, until a couple of things happened: 1) I actually read the Koran (sorry, I mean "the meaning of the Koran" since I can't read Arabic) and its associated works; 2) I deployed seven times to Iraq and Afghanistan, and regularly got to review the material we captured on objectives and the interviews/interrogations of the locals; 3) I actually bothered to read, research, and come to my own conclusions instead of blindly believing what my college professors or some talking head on television told me to believe (this was the most important).

I think a lot of people believe the "religion of peace" argument because they desperately want it to be true, and can't fathom the possibility of something different. Admitting that Islam is not a religion of peace doesn't make you a bad person, and it doesn't make Islam a bad religion. It is simply a recognition of truth. I don't think anyone on this site is advocating for the destruction of Islam or its adherents, but at the same time, we can't go around blindly misinterpreting the obvious. Islam was created and spread by the sword, and that tradition continues. I'm quite happy to have peaceful co-existence with anyone and anything, but when that option is not reciprocated, it gives me pause. This is a war of inches, it won't happen overnight but I don't want my children or grandchildren to wake up one morning and find that their only options are conversion, dhimmitude, or death. And if you think that isnt' the overall goal of Islam as a whole, you're wrong.

Dead wrong.
 
Best watch it pardus, you best have a strong legal team making fun of Scientology like that :p

Totally agree with Marauder in the whole "its a religion of peace is BS" as I did the same he did and had similar experiences. Personally, and i'm not TRYING to bash on Christianity in any sense, but one can use the "new testament over-rules the old" argument and at times i'd agree, then again you have plenty who say that and then mean "oh, well except for the hate the gays, the commandments, and the psalms parts, those are still legit". You really can't pick and choose which parts of a religious text your gonna follow, its hypocritical and narrow minded. Same goes with Islam, you can't go "oh well we'll just follow the nice teachings of the prophet", again short sighted and hypocritical. Same goes for just about every religious book out there, though there are plenty who do just that!

One thing most people don't understand about Islam and what seems to back up the mis-informed perception that its a religion of peace is that The Koran isn't just the only religious text that guides muslims, there are the hadith's.

The islamic practice of abrogation (or Naskh): It is a term used in Islamic legal exegesis for seemingly contradictory material within or between the twin bases of Islamic holy law: the Qur'ān and the Prophetic Sunna. Since the writings of the Koran can be broken up into two different parts, meca (the writings for when the Muhammed lived there and started his religion, living in peace with the other religious groups and writing of peace and love and all that), and medinna (the writings that came later after him and his followers had been forced into the desert, expanded their army and became warlords, and when all the kill the infidels and such writings came from), then you have contradictory writings. Abrogation states that if you have two conflicting writings like that in the Koran, the ones that came later in Muhammed's life over-rule the earlier writings. So in basic terms, the kill infidels and spread the faith by the sword writings over-rule the lets live in peace with the Christians and Jews writings.

Since most people don't bother to research shit and just take their professor's and the corporate controlled media's word on everything, then people don't get it.

Again, not all Muslims are evil and follow all the teachings of the Koran, in fact a lot don't even know what a lot of it literally says since it's written in ancient arabic and very little people can read it let alone write it, not to count illiteracy and thinking the Imam know's best. Then again not all Christians are good, wholesome, loving people. Westboro is proof of that enough, not to mention all the "you dance and listen to music, your going to hell!" types.

If people would actually LEARN shit and live their lives instead of following hypocritical writings in old all books, we'd all be a lot better off. Till then, we kill all those fuckers as best we can!
 
Every time I read or hear the "not all Muslims are bad people" argument I want to throw up.
 
The New Testament supersedes the old in Christianity, and I specifically said Christianity. Show me where in the New Testament it advocates genocide.
I would say that the OT holds the same weight as the NT in Christianity; I'm coming from a Catholic background, so any supposed changes from the OT to the NT are done in order to correct poor interpretations drawn from the OT.

My intent (And it was poor) was to say that the NT endorses the OT; as such, I view them linked, so what I probably should have said is that you would need to throw away verses in the New Testament that specifically refer to the Old Testament in order to square it away.
 
My first Iraq tour back in 04 we had a translator, Mo, was born Iraqi but fled the country after Saddam took power and lived in the US as a citizen until the invasion, then went back to be a translator because he wanted to help his people and his adopted country. He was a muslim (not uber devot but a religious man trying to live a good life) and a family man. IED killed him and severely wounded a fellow Marine four months into the tour. I had suffered a injury recently and was regulated to HQ duties while I recovered and it fell to me to pack his things up after his death. Found pictures of his wife and kids, damn near killed me to see that. THAT man is one of the reasons why I say not all Muslims are bad people. He died not only wanting to help his people, but help serve his adopted country in the capacity he did. I take that into consideration and urge others to remember and do the same in regards to others.
 
I would say that the OT holds the same weight as the NT in Christianity; I'm coming from a Catholic background, so any supposed changes from the OT to the NT are done in order to correct poor interpretations drawn from the OT.

My intent (And it was poor) was to say that the NT endorses the OT; as such, I view them linked, so what I probably should have said is that you would need to throw away verses in the New Testament that specifically refer to the Old Testament in order to square it away.

This is just going to get bogged down and I'm not interested in that so all I'll say is that I disagree with your view.
 
its already bogged down pardus, it always does with religion, no one ever wins. i'm pretty well done with this thread, said my part. was a good philosophical and moral debate to be sure, and I enjoy seeing other's points of view and having a good intellectual conversation with others. contrary to popular belief, the Corps does produce a few free thinking, intellectual, out of the box types, and personally that's the type of warrior I aspire to be and would wanna have around me any day of the week......hmmmm, could THAT be part of the reason i'm committed to going SOF? plot thickens.....dun dun duuuuuuunnnnnn!!! :)
 
I don't see a lot of point in it when you consider Taqiyya.

Good point and I take that into consideration. I've also pressed the guys I've debated with and learnt that the " we are all Muslim brothers" is a steaming pile. One in particular has been an absolute source of hilarity as we both give each other heaps of abuse. But I take them on not to be an arsehole but because I want get their point of view and understand it. My sig line hasn't altered.
 
We (Americans) live in a nation that was formed for the most part on the religious grounds that the tyrants trying to make people believe a certain way were dead wrong and were stood up against. That was then and should still be the same now. Read my sig line and it will explain this entire philosophy to wit.
 
Im curious, how many here debate these points we've talked about with Muslims?

I wouldn't say I debate them as much as I am still currently unconvinced.

I say that mainly because I am only 25 & it has only been within the past year that I have actively & regularly researched Islam. Most of my current knowledge comes from a few religion classes, & an Islamic Civ course (taught by a Vietnam SF vet). I've read the Quran, the Hadiths, some al-Ghazzali, & a few Middle East history books- which means I don't consider myself educated enough to have a definitive opinion.

I do enjoy reading threads on this topic however, as it gives me the opportunity to compare the opinions of those wiser than I.
 
Im curious, how many here debate these points we've talked about with Muslims?

I don't really think I need to debate something I've seen with my own eyes. That said, I would certainly welcome the opportunity but I don't think I'd get any takers. At least not ones who would be willing to have a meaningful discussion without it devolving into what I described above.
 
Im curious, how many here debate these points we've talked about with Muslims?
I'm not sure you could call it a debate, but I've discussed some of the things in here with my Arabic professor who is Tunisian and a Muslim. I get the sense (honestly) that he tries to come across as an "American Muslim" to Americans. What I mean by that is he comes across as very open to other religions, except Judaism. I've tried to get him to talk about the Jewish-Muslim rift multiple times and each time I have been shut down. So, it's very clear to me there is something very real there. He says he understands he is in a predominantly Christian nation. He consistently makes "jokes" about profiling Muslims. For example,
"Make sure you don't take your Arabic books to the airport."
"Ah the United States...freedom of religion...unless you appear to be Arab"(he will purposefully pronounce it Aayy-rab).
If a female raises her hand to answer a question, "I guess I will let the woman have a voice..."

In regards to people like AQ, he has pretty much condemned them for killing other Muslims, but seems to think (or implies that) its okay for them to attack foreigners because we are in their land.

So I find a lot of contradictions in what he says/does. It is my own personal opinion that he adheres to a very strict interpretation of Islam.
 
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