Let Marines be Marines: retaining servicemen

[R.Caerbannog]

Wellllllllllllll....

And they do that 24/7 365?

Gimme a fucking break bro. More Marines have jobs aligned with corporate life than they do with slitting Ahkbars throat.

I dunno. Corporate America is routinely raped by Chinese hackers in the intellectual property rights area, they ain't economically closing with or destroying anything at the moment. Maybe 'Corporate America' should focus on not getting their trade secrets stolen instead of all the safety brief shenanigans.

I'm not a Marine, but these excerpts from 'Let Marines Be Marines' made the most sense in terms of cutting back on powerpoint ranger presentations and mandatory online training. The problem mentioned below is systemic across all branches and I'm glad someone is bringing attention to the toxic culture that has been allowed to permeate the services, in this case the Marine Corps.

"The military must cut waste, eliminate unnecessary paperwork and training that do not improve lethality, and provide additional funding for training (such as flight hours) to hone the warfighters’ combat edge. Marine leaders currently are focused on the wrong things. They need to cut back on Marine Net courses, transgender awareness training, mandatory safety stand downs, sexual assault prevention training, and other unnecessary activities that detract from operations. The Marine Corps must focus more on recruiting individuals who have the moral character to do the right thing—rather than accepting people who have broken moral compasses who require constant supervision and morality training...

The retention deficit is a major problem for the future security of the country and for filling the ranks of the Marine Corps. It is a result of low job satisfaction created by false perceptions of service, cumulative operational fatigue, and too much time spent on tasks not related to combat skills. The flight of talent directly impacts operational readiness, safety, and combat effectiveness..."

edit: meant that powerpoint reliance is toxic

 

[CDG]

And they do that 24/7 365?

Gimme a fucking break bro. More Marines have jobs aligned with corporate life than they do with slitting Ahkbars throat.

No, they of course do not actively engage in combat 24/7/365. The point is that the fucking overall mission is much, much different, bro. Aligned with and samesies are two different things.

 

[TLDR20]

No, they of course do not actively engage in combat 24/7/365. The point is that the fucking overall mission is much, much different, bro. Aligned with and samesies are two different things.

I get that. I also get that doing these trainings is lame as fuck. I did them the same as the next guy. But, they have to be done, or else when some private fucks up someone will blame his leadership, and to be honest, if he hadn’t been trained it would be a fair assessment of blame in the military system. We say here regularly that a leader is responsible for everything that goes on under their watch. So what military leader wouldn’t want their folks getting this mandatory training ?

Killing people is the mission. That mission is best completed by putting the right people in the right place at the right time. If people are having complaints filed, getting DUI’s, beating their wives, or having their computers hacked they aren’t in the right situation to kill badguys...

 

[Grunt]

Power Points and their respective courses are the apex of embracing the suck! It's as bad as what we deal with on a mission, minus getting shot at, but it's the suck nonetheless.

In reality, there are people that slip through the cracks in every branch and MOS. No one likes them, but they are there and no service in particular is worse than the other. The problem is...they aren't dealt with consistently across the board. Until then, this will go on....

 

[TLDR20]

@CDG you posted this in another thread but think about it from a SM perspective.

Lol. If drugs, DUIs, domestice abuse, child abuse, weapons charges, and whatever else I am forgetting don't keep players out, then a coach certainly isn't going to be banned for coaching questionable tactics.

All the things you applied to NFL players sure as fuck are done in large members by SM’s. That is with the classes, that is with the threat of UCMJ. Now you want to take a bunch of killers and not constantly remind them how to behave the 99% of the time they aren’t in combat?

My last gripe on this subject is this: if you got out because of PowerPoints and bullshit classes, you were gettting out anyways. The guys that are going to stay are going to stay. Shit I know in certain units apart from a few mandatory sit in class things, the junior guy is given everyone’s CaC and told to do their training for everyone else. Right or wrong, that is reality. Guys get out for the same reasons they have been getting out since GEorge Washington was a team leader. It’s always better in the other side...

 

[Ooh-Rah]

Shit I know in certain units apart from a few mandatory sit in class things, the junior guy is given everyone’s CaC and told to do their training for everyone else

A close reenactment?

 

[Frank S.]

I may or may not be the guy in the middle! LOL

View attachment 20815

 

[Gunz]

You know who else has loads of training on stupid shit, online and otherwise?

Every fucking large corporation in America.

Grow up dudes, everyone hates that shit but the only place you can go and not have that is back in the block or starting your own business. You want to get out and make bank? Welcome to EO training, and inherent bias training, sexual harassment shit, and all the IT stuff.

I haven't had much sensitivity training. I remember one sexual
harassment seminar in 13 years at my last corporate gig. And the only ones in the service BITD were DoD-produced movies about the dangers of VD. Which nobody paid much attention to.

The biggest problem then was the amount of downtime, mindless busy-work, or too many white-glove barracks inspections for Marine rifle companies, most of which had fair proportions of combat veterans who were trying to adjust to garrison life. I am convinced if we had been kept far more active training and maintaining skills germane to our MOSs, more of us would have chosen to stay in, morale and discipline would've improved, there would've been fewer issues related to alcohol and drug abuse.

Too many combat-veteran infantry NCOs, Corporals and Sgts were leaving the Corps because they lacked a sense of purpose, they were dulled by the monotony of barracks life. I don't know what it's like in the post-GWOT Army and Marine infantry, but according to the original article, boredom is still a contributing factor of Marine attrition.

 

[Ooh-Rah]

I've been called a cunt by Pardus and now this by @Frank S.
Good times!

 

[Grunt]

I've been called a cunt by Pardus and now this by @Frank S.
Good times!

Embrace it, Brother! It's good training....

 

[Gunz]

I've been called a cunt by Pardus and now this by @Frank S.
Good times!

That's baby stuff. I was "bukkakied with hate."

 

[ThunderHorse]

Another haven't served agenda idiot writing for T&P, what's new?

 

[Ooh-Rah]

Another haven't served agenda idiot writing for T&P, what's new?

1: I don't know anything about Keller or if he's an idiot. First hand knowledge, or just an opinion?

2: I disagree with your assertion that because he has not served, he cannot have an opinion about the military. See also the NFL thread, unless I missed someone, none of us have played pro-football, but we sure talk in that thread like we know what's going on much more than the men playing and coaching.

 

[ThunderHorse]

1: I don't know anything about Keller or if he's an idiot. First hand knowledge, or just an opinion?

2: I disagree with your assertion that because he has not served, he cannot have an opinion about the military. See also the NFL thread, unless I missed someone, none of us have played pro-football, but we sure talk in that thread like we know what's going on much more than the men playing and coaching.

I remember when T&P came out it was sort of cool, everyone I knew from School in the Army and Leading troops was reposting their articles on Facebook. And then the liberal slant came out into the forefront when it massively grew and wasn't employing a mainly veteran editorial staff. I think for this sort of publication, it should be so. Here's Keller's CV https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaredbkeller/

T&P was the For Servicemen By Servicemen of Journalism when it came out. And it wasn't really journalism now that I recall but a lot of lists.

As far as Keller being an idiot:

Jared Keller, fired for plagiarism, still writing

I don't know, but he's been fired before due to plagerism.

 

[Devildoc]

1: I don't know anything about Keller or if he's an idiot. First hand knowledge, or just an opinion?

2: I disagree with your assertion that because he has not served, he cannot have an opinion about the military. See also the NFL thread, unless I missed someone, none of us have played pro-football, but we sure talk in that thread like we know what's going on much more than the men playing and coaching.

Since 99% of the population have not served, 99% of writers writing about the military never served. I am OK with that; I am not OK with opinion pieces that don't articulate the basis for an opinion. Have an opinion? Fine. Tell me why. Don't rehash every bad article and use that as a source.

 

[Marauder06]

It became more overt during the presidential campaign, but T&P has always had a very liberal focus. It's owner, Zach Ischol, is a former MARSOC Marine and a bigtime Hillary Clinton supporter. He's also a really good dude and a savvy businessman who does a lot of good work for the community. I met him in person once and we're friends on Facebook. I disagree strongly with T&P's political leanings and think some of their opinion pieces are utter garbage, but I think that of most media outlets. IMO, T&P is a net good for the Veteran Community.

I personally would not have hired Keller given his background, which I didn't know about until I read the above link. That said, I usually don't care if people from outside the military have an opinion about the military or some of the things we do. I have an opinion on feminism and I'm not a woman. I have an opinion about race relations in the US and I'm not a minority. I have an opinion on Israel/Palestine, and I'm neither Israeli nor Palestinian, nor Jewish nor Muslim. No one's ever going to tell me my opinion is invalid simply because I'm "not" something. That doesn't keep me from responding strongly when people attack the military or when they say dumb things about it, but I don't care that people from outside my profession have an opinion about my profession.

Outside critiques can often be better than internal ones, because outsiders may be less biased in favor of the organization. If people want to write things about us, fine. We have plenty of voices who can counter their unwarranted criticism. I'll also add that criticism from the inside, particularly when it's incomplete, ill-informed, or in pursuit of a personal agenda, can be far more damaging than that of an outsider, because people impart it with more credibility because it comes from someone who wears, or who wore, the uniform. I get far more annoyed when I read poorly written, ill-informed, politically-driven drivel from a member of our community that I do from an outsider. For one thing, people tend to believe them, no matter what is being said. For another, I have a higher expectation of my fellow vets.

I know I've posted it here several times before, but given the last few pages of this thread it bears repeating: Lying to Ourselves Lying to Ourselves: Dishonesty in the Army Profession

 

[AWP]

We can hate CBT's, but they serve a number of legal and CYA functions. If you get out and go to Corporate America, become a gov't employee elsewhere, contract with the military, etc, then you'll see CBT's and worthless PP briefings again and again. Anyone who thinks the volume of briefings and CBT's will decrease once they are out is delusional.

Guys get out because (among other things) reality does not meet expectations. If a CBT is his/ her reason, I wouldn't want them around. A CBT shouldn't mentally break a person.

 

[TLDR20]

We can hate CBT's, but they serve a number of legal and CYA functions. If you get out and go to Corporate America, become a gov't employee elsewhere, contract with the military, etc, then you'll see CBT's and worthless PP briefings again and again. Anyone who thinks the volume of briefings and CBT's will decrease once they are out is delusional.

Guys get out because (among other things) reality does not meet expectations. If a CBT is his/ her reason, I wouldn't want them around. A CBT shouldn't mentally break a person.

Yeah. Totally agree.

 

[Devildoc]

We can hate CBT's, but they serve a number of legal and CYA functions. If you get out and go to Corporate America, become a gov't employee elsewhere, contract with the military, etc, then you'll see CBT's and worthless PP briefings again and again. Anyone who thinks the volume of briefings and CBT's will decrease once they are out is delusional.

Guys get out because (among other things) reality does not meet expectations. If a CBT is his/ her reason, I wouldn't want them around. A CBT shouldn't mentally break a person.

First, I would say I don't think it's about mentally breaking a person. I think you're right though about being disillusioned/reality not meeting expectations. People join the military, all branches, for a variety of reasons. I am sure doing computer-based training and sexual harassment training is on nobody's top 10 list. It is what it is. People leave other jobs for a lesser reasons. I don't care if they want to leave the military because they hate doing those.

But that article is about so much more than just that. Piss poor leadership, not having the tools to do your job, taking away training hours you should spend doing your job to do something else, the list goes on.

So the article is also about what does it take to retain people? Clearly it's not money because Uncle Sugar offers more money and bonuses than any corporate entity I'm aware of, especially for the age of its employees.

 

[Raksasa Kotor]

I wonder if the people that produce CBT's have to do CBT's...