Florida173
SOF Support
People will get demonized. What happens when we find out that fort (random MOH recipient)'s family had slaves?
Military Bases
- Thread starter LimaPanther
- Start date
Sad, but true. Shouldn't matter, but someone will probably make it matter.
"Army values are lame." Got it.
Look, we're a values-based organization. If we name things after immutable values, then we don't have to go through revisionism every 30 years,...
D
Deleted member 2517
Guest
Fair point.
The Army Values only came about in 1995 (3 years younger than I am). That isn’t a long lasting tradition. Do I support Loyalty Duty Respect Selfless service Honor Integrity Personal courage? Of course. Those are things any descent human, and more importantly anyone in the 5 (6 if you count Coast Guard) Uniformed Services should believe in.
The reason I don’t “take them to heart?” Well... that’s been created in the last 25 years. If you’ve recited it in basic... it sounds fake And like us copying the Marines.
Marines have us beat- the Marine Hymn has been around far longer. It doesn’t sound like a GO created it. The Soliders Creed was written by Gen. Shinseki. The Beret Guy.
I don’t take that seriously. I do take the various Army divisions individual songs and traditions seriously. Even if I’m not part of those units.
Name posts after post WW2 or Vietnam history. Name them after what they specialize in. Don’t name them after an Army Values system I fully expect to be changed in the next 10 years.
Because something was laid out concretely recently makes it less true?
You're telling me as a member of the armed services, you, don't take things like honor, courage, respect, loyalty and so forth seriously? That's sad.
You're telling me as a member of the armed services, you, don't take things like honor, courage, respect, loyalty and so forth seriously? That's sad.
ThunderHorse
Verified Military
Cmon man.
Eric Shinseki, you mean three bronze stars for valor and two purples hearts Shinseki? That guy was much more than "The Beret Guy."
The "Caisson Song" although adopted after every one else has been a song sung by Soldiers for over 100 years in our Army.
I've previously opined that the US Army has been horrible with preserving its history. For whatever reason, the Marine Corps is the best at it. The Navy at least kept their uniforms for enlisted sailors.
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He's not saying that he doesn't take those values seriously; he's saying that they sound very "manufactured by committee" as opposed to something that's actually based in tradition. It's the same thing with how many jr. Soldiers feel that the Soldier's Creed sounds like a very forced thing (also a Shineski thing).
I think it may just be a case of these things being so recent that some of us find them eye rolling as opposed to endearing.
ETA: I dont mean any disrespect to Gen Shineski, just pointing that out as another thing he played a part in to change Army culture
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D
Deleted member 2517
Guest
I just said I did...
@Cookie_ came in to clarify before I could. It seems pre packaged, it seems fake, and it sounds like shit compared to the Ranger Creed and The Army Song.
Awards are not a cover for poor decisions. Gen. Shinseki may have a solid combat record, it still doesn’t make his decisions as a G.O. infallible.
You said it yourself in the “All Things Wrong” thread...
That’s a two time Bronze Star recipient and former SMU member. I guess he’s as infallible as Gen Shinseki.
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People would believe more in the Soldier's Creed if soldiers and especially their leaders actually...followed that creed. It is manufactured hype; an ad campaign. It sounds forced, sterile, bland, like it came from a coporate boardroom instead of a battlefield. The Ranger Creed and NCO Creed...those have souls. The Soldier's Creed reads like it should be on a poster of a sunrise in a back office of Dunder Mifflin.
100% agree. The Army has an amazing opportunity to change this right now...and does anyone want to take bets on how poorly this will go?
100% agree. The Army has an amazing opportunity to change this right now...and does anyone want to take bets on how poorly this will go?
Devildoc
Verified Military
I mean, are they really "forts" anymore? How about 'Columbus Army Base', 'Fayetteville Army Base,'. That'll work right up until someone reads a Wiki page that Mr. Fayetteville was related to a man who kicked puppies or engaged in some sort of offensive behavior. /sarc
I do like the idea of MOH winners, but see long-term issues with that as well. Ain't no one going to be happy.
John Lejeune's dad was a confederate officer...wonder how long until we see pushback there....
I do like the idea of MOH winners, but see long-term issues with that as well. Ain't no one going to be happy.
John Lejeune's dad was a confederate officer...wonder how long until we see pushback there....
Let an old guy butt in...it's not that those values aren't taken seriously, but when they are posted on signs at intervals as you drive onto post, they ready like Burma Shave signs...(sorry, dated analogy)...it reminds me of all the jingoistic bull shit that I heard coming from the head shed...when my dad was training troops, his unit motto, seriously, was Zero Defects...that was the greeting of the day when saluting an officer..."Zero Defects, sir..."
I know for a fact the greeting wasn't taken seriously...when something becomes a slogan, and is so frequently repeated, it becomes meaningless...I'll put up my soap box and get some more coffee...
Florida173
SOF Support
Sounds good.. but then we have to remember that as much of an abolistionist Lafayette was, he also owned slaves... Seems problematic to me. And Columbus, he's in enough trouble as it is.
ThunderHorse
Verified Military
The context behind the's comments are significantly different.
Devildoc
Verified Military
Yeah, that's what I am saying....no matter what people want to rename a base, someone, somewhere, will have an issue....
Senator Kennedy is proposing we rename every single military installation after a a MOH recipient, not just the bases named after Confederates.
Sen. Kennedy says all military installations should be renamed after Medal of Honor winners
Sen. Kennedy says all military installations should be renamed after Medal of Honor winners
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Not only cheap but how do you decide who is picked. I know of 2 personally. Maj. Gen James Livingston (USMC Ret) (Vietnam) and I use to probably play together as kids when younger. My grandparents and his family lived in the same little town in GA. And Sgt Kyle White C 2/503, 173rd Abn. (Afgan). He and I have had a few chats and lunch. Not a MOH but Gen Carl Stiner (2d Commander of SOCOM) lives not far from me and we chat when we see each other. Lots of choices.
Kraut783
SOF Support
Start with MOH recipients from WWI and work your way forward.
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Problem with naming after MOH recipients is the politics involved. I can see TN wanting a base named after Alvin C. York. He was one of the most decorated during WWI. Then comes either Texas or Virginia wanting a base named after Audy Murphy. He earned ever combat decoration during WWII. Born in TX & died in VA. Ever state and politician will be fighting over this.
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