National Protest and 'disband the cops' discussion (and now ICE)

[Blizzard]

It seems the police escalation(even without the agent provocateur theories) really didn't help either.

They're out there arresting news crews.

CNN crew released from police custody after they were arrested live on air in Minneapolis

I don't know anything about what took place there but I'm happy to see that they are at least capable of taking people into custody because that hasn't been apparent up until now.

 

[amlove21]

Nothing idiotic about it. What's your answer?

And I already gave you my answer for yours.

We disagree. And absolutely not would I be ok with shooting Americans. Or deploying to Minnesota to act a security force.

 

[amlove21]

If I was still in why not? Rubber bullets and CS gas ain't gonna kill anyone, if it does that's on them for partaking in this little adventure. Play stupid games win stupid prizes.

If you want me to advocate straight up murdering folks well... that's a talk you might have to have with someone else. Rubber bullets and CS gas are fine until it turns into a two way range.

Cool. Not what the president said though. but, given your history of apologia, I got the answer I expected.

 

[BloodStripe]

We disagree. And absolutely not would I be ok with shooting Americans. Or deploying to Minnesota to act a security force.

I didnt say you would be there as a security force. I just said you have been ordered to deploy there. Are you telling me that you would not follow a lawful order given to you by a Commanding Officer? We're on the same side with regards to firing on civilians. I just want to know where you'd be if it came down to you protecting your crew vs not harming someone attacking you or your crew.

 

[R.Caerbannog]

Cool. Not what the president said though. but, given your history of apologia, I got the answer I expected.

Dude... you're using sophistry and wordplay to make it seem like the president wants to massacre people. C'mon... I didn't even vote for the guy, but it seems I'm always trying to provide counter views to what you and some of the others are putting out.

 

[LimaPanther]

Question - If cities are being burned down throughout the US because of riots, and there are not enough LEOs to handle the situation, do you let the cities burn or do you send in troops? If you send in troops and they are attacked, do the troops stand and take it or do they defend themselves? This is what I see taking place in the future if rioters realize nothing will be done to them.

 

[Florida173]

Cool. Not what the president said though. but, given your history of apologia, I got the answer I expected.

So let's go back and read this then...

....These THUGS are dishonoring the memory of George Floyd, and I won’t let that happen. Just spoke to Governor Tim Walz and told him that the Military is with him all the way. Any difficulty and we will assume control but, when the looting starts, the shooting starts. Thank you!

This is a thoughtful and likely accurate prediction. Good enough for me to see that it should be de-escalated well before a federal response

 

[Cookie_]

It's telling how quick you are to label people as 'domestic terrorists', but not the guys burn stuff down. It's not like I agree with any of the beef those people had, but I find it interesting to see how one side so quickly demonizes the other. Again, part of the play stupid games win stupid prizes theme.

You're whole original post was "but no one cares about it when its conservative white people! We always get called terrorists"

And then the linked story you shared was literally from an incident of domestic terrorism.

I'm not labeling anybody, but if it makes you happy; sure, burning buildings can be considered domestic terrorism too.

 

[amlove21]

I didnt say you would be there as a security force. I just said you have been ordered to deploy there. Are you telling me that you would not follow a lawful order given to you by a Commanding Officer? We're on the same side with regards to firing on civilians. I just want to know where you'd be if it came down to you protecting your crew vs not harming someone attacking you or your crew.

Don’t create a false dichotomy, and don’t appeal to emotion. I’ll not do the same. This has nothing to do with ‘protecting my crew’. This has to do with protecting target and autozone.

You saying that leads me to believe you grossly misunderstand the entire issue or you’re being a dick to prove a point. Either way- and this is me speaking, as a person, to you, not as a mod or an authority figure- you can knock that shit right off.
I’m happy to follow lawful orders. Done it my whole career. As a SNCO, it’s 100% my lane to critically examine which orders are indeed lawful and resist when those orders exist in a grey area- like when a 75 year old dude threatens to use the military to shoot looters via Twitter. Even joking.

What the fuck are we even talking about.

 

[Ranger Psych]

Arson of an occupied building is a crime in basically every state in the nation where use of lethal force is authorized by LAYMEN and has an affirmative defense in a court of law.

Just throwing that out there since everyone thinks looting's apparently cool. Protesting =/= looting/rioting. Hell, at least the Rodney King shit went down AFTER due process fucked things up.

 

[R.Caerbannog]

You're whole original post was "but no one cares about it when its conservative white people! We always get called terrorists"

And then the linked story you shared was literally from an incident of domestic terrorism.

I'm not labeling anybody, but if it makes you happy; sure, burning buildings can be considered domestic terrorism too.

Just pointing out the the double standard that's currently in play. As for what's construed as domestic terrorism, you should look up some of the DHS FOIA stuff that's been released. You'd be surprised to see how easily one can fit into those very expansive guidelines.

 

[Cookie_]

Protesting =/= looting/rioting.

"Why do the colonists not petition the king? Why must they throw the tea in the harbor?"

Not disagreeing with your overall point/supporting the arson, but we're a country founded on rioting.

An unfortunate mainstay of the American culture is we only change things when that change is brought about through violence or catastrophe.

 

[LimaPanther]

From the many responses I have read on here it appears that many have no problem with rioters looting and burning down cities and nothing being done about it.
The President, in his remark to the Governor, basically said that if the state could not handle the situation then the military was there to help. But if it got out of hand and the military came in then it wouldn't be pretty. If a city or state can not handle the lawlessness in their state and things get so bad that they request military help then what do you expect the military to do?

 

[Blizzard]

Arson of an occupied building is a crime in basically every state in the nation where use of lethal force is authorized by LAYMEN and has an affirmative defense in a court of law.

Just throwing that out there since everyone thinks looting's apparently cool. Protesting =/= looting/rioting. Hell, at least the Rodney King shit went down AFTER due process fucked things up.

A little trickier in MN, especially if it's a business. Lethal force can be used to protect life, not property. You'd be rolling the dice and better have a solid explanation.

Minnesota law won't excuse killing to protect property

 

[BloodStripe]

Don’t create a false dichotomy, and don’t appeal to emotion. I’ll not do the same. This has nothing to do with ‘protecting my crew’. This has to do with protecting target and autozone.

You saying that leads me to believe you grossly misunderstand the entire issue or you’re being a dick to prove a point. Either way- and this is me speaking, as a person, to you, not as a mod or an authority figure- you can knock that shit right off.
I’m happy to follow lawful orders. Done it my whole career. As a SNCO, it’s 100% my lane to critically examine which orders are indeed lawful and resist when those orders exist in a grey area- like when a 75 year old dude threatens to use the military to shoot looters via Twitter. Even joking.

What the fuck are we even talking about.

Wasn't me trying to be a dick. It was a rhetorical question just as your question of are you going to shoot civilians is basically rhetorical, whether you agree to my sentiment or not, that's how a lot of us are interpreting it.

I highly doubt the Ohio National Guard showed up to Kent State thinking they were going to murder 13 people that day and yet here we are 50 years this month from that happening still fearful of that happening again.

Arson of an occupied building is a crime in basically every state in the nation where use of lethal force is authorized by LAYMEN and has an affirmative defense in a court of law.

Just throwing that out there since everyone thinks looting's apparently cool. Protesting =/= looting/rioting. Hell, at least the Rodney King shit went down AFTER due process fucked things up.

That 5hr long YouTube video Ooh-rah posted has a guy being interviewed at 1:01.55 saying he's just there to riot.

I weep for the future of our country. Thankfully we still have a lot of really good people who aren't going to participate in this stupidity, and we have a lot of really good police officers that wont go out and murder people in custody.

 

[Blizzard]

From the many responses I have read on here it appears that many have no problem with rioters looting and burning down cities and nothing being done about it.

I don't think that's the case at all.

There is a huge gap with options between not doing anything and shooting them. It's also not a military problem, it's a law enforcement problem. That's my view anyway.

 

[Florida173]

And then the linked story you shared was literally from an incident of domestic terrorism.

Are we talking about the same incident that there's a wrongful death suit and indicted federal agents for lying? From their perspective at the time, they believed the outcome would have been no different than Bundy's previous incident, dismissed with prejudice.

 

[Ooh-Rah]

I can feel tension ramping up to Minneapolis levels in this thread.

Reminder for everyone to make your points with as much passion as you feel, but keep it professional and not personally directed at other members.

 

[amlove21]

Oh, cool.

Trump's tweet that got tagged for 'glorifying violence' used a phrase from a 1960s cop whose policies started a race riot

ETA- @Devildoc this is where the QAnon folks (and the article you posted earlier) comes to a breaking point. Are there really ‘no coincidences’? Is the president playing 4D chess and every move is calculated? If so- then he meant to quote a cop that legit kicked off race riots using his exact phrase. If not- if it was justthe president speaking and it’s just a coincidence, and he’s just inept and a terrible communicator, then he’s not the white hat people would lead you to believe.

 

[R.Caerbannog]

A little trickier in MN, especially if it's a business. Lethal force can be used to protect life, not property. You'd be rolling the dice and better have a solid explanation.

Minnesota law won't excuse killing to protect property

Escalation of force. Hit them with rubber, foam, or CS until they back off. If they start shooting at you have the DMR or scout guys use lead, otherwise just hammer them with rubber. That shit hurts.

Not as big an issue as people are making it out to be.