National Protest and 'disband the cops' discussion (and now ICE)
- Thread starter Ooh-Rah
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Ok, that’s a start, but underlying causes; housing, health, jobs. I’ve heard that there’s real concerns regarding these areas.
As for police resources of any hue, I’ve worked in private security for years & my catch all phrase is ‘security: last thing you think of & the first thing you scream at.’
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While I agree with the first half regarding POTUS, the second half is inaccurate (law enforcement change). This whole episode (the video that started it) is not an issue with race. People need to stop with the race, there is nothing on that video that shows any form of racism. What it does show is a long time problem with policing and policing administration in general. What I am about to say is probably not going to be popular here. Many will initially scoff, but all I ask is for you to hear me out and let me try to explain.
How many LEOs and former LEOs here have had similar training as seen in the video?
How many have heard in training (and said the same thing) "if you can talk, you can breathe"?
How many times have we heard police administrators make rude and disparaging comments about members of the public? Or given an officer a hard time for trying to go the extra mile with a citizen?
How many have been ordered to do something they weren't sure about but didn't want to lose their jobs? Or forced to re-write a report because the supervisor doesn't support the narrative they want vs the truth?
How many have seen where administrators look the other way (and order subordinates to do so) for citizens that contribute to their campaigns?
How many times have you as an officer, needed some mental health days or a day off and been told to suck it up and move on? Or afraid to make use of any mental health counseling or job assistance for fear of reprisal or negative effect to your career?
How many have been told if you don't publicly or financially support the head cop that you could lose your job? Or if you support the opposition you risk reprisal?
I have seen all of these and more in the short time I was in LE. In a town that was heavily political with a moderate-sized agency (around a 1000 sworn). Law enforcement's problem is that they (meaning administration and thereby the culture that permeates through the ranks...aka old-timers) think they are above the citizenry. For the longest time, it can be argued that on the micro-scale cops are inherently good. On an individual basis, cops try to do right by the community. On the macro-scale cops (their administrators and culture) are inherently power-hungry and abusive.
Now, if you've never been the target of an IA witch hunt (where the administration wants you gone) or false criminal accusation, then it is easy to say "I never saw any of that" or "you're just jaded". I am jaded, but that doesn't mean I am wrong either. If you have been the subject of such actions then you know that a lot of what I have said is true. While much of what I have seen and experienced is anecdotal, I have seen it an heard it from other people within the profession.
Does that mean we abolish the LE profession? Certainly not. However, the profession needs to evolve and change. If you have spent any time in that profession you know this to be true.
Now before any current or former LEs decide to jump on me consider this, YOU may have not seen any of the above, and there are bad apples in society that cause trouble, but with as much as we have seen come to light as a result of incompetent leadership and policing in agencies across the nation. You have to ask yourself. Could I be right? Does law enforcement need to evolve? Could their interactions with the public be improved?
Florida173
SOF Support
I'm watching videos of white people apologizing for being white and kissing boots of black people out on the streets. You might not think this is about race, and I can suggest the real problem might not be, but the BLM movement absolutely thinks it's about race.
I can't rebuttal anything from the rest of your post because of I have zero experience. I'll leave it to the current and past LEOs.
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Florida173
SOF Support
Can someone explain to me again why I care what a former general thinks when he has zero experience in Defense Support to Civil Authorities (DSCA). Does he also take issue with all these State's Governors are currently activating their National Guardsmen to support the defense of their cities burning down?
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You're absolutely right. They and everyone else on both sides is making it about race, unfortunately. Thanks for the response.
ETA: also agree on Mattis one. Everything so far response wise has been in accordance with the Constitution.
Because he’s right.
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Governors mobilizing the State National Guard and the President of the United States sending in active-duty troops is not even remotely the same thing. You know it, I know it, and the American People know it.
ThunderHorse
Verified Military
General question. Minneapolis is your city. I've only seen the BDA on television, twitter, etc. There are several previous precedents for sending troops to restore order. It is not common, but right now many places look like LA 1992. You have police forces with limited ability to contain the violence in addition to having no political back up. (President threatens to use the Insurrection Act, New York Governor Cuomo tells DeBlasio he'll be displaced)
Here in Phoenix we personally don't need active duty troops as backup, comparatively we haven't had major riots. But we do need the elected leadership in Phoenix to grow a spine.
This could end up dying down in most places, but certain places may need to be reinforced whether that is with active duty troops or other guard units that get placed under local command authority.
Florida173
SOF Support
Historically it hasn't. Most times if there is an event that would bring an active component, an dual-status commander is identified through NORTHCOM for both title 10 and 32 authorities. Happens during natural disasters and happens to the significant events like Super Bowl and DNC/RNC.
Coming from Florida, I've probably been activated more times than most people on here with Guard experience and have done a crazy amount of DSCA training for it. Admittedly doesn't make me an expert, but gives some of my perspective.
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So who is this Candice Owens? She's got a "checkmark" by her name so I'm assuming she's 'somebody'? This video popped up on my Facebook feed today. She's coming out against the support for George Floyd and calling out the BLM movement.
Not sure what to make of her... @R.Caerbannog , are you aware of her? Thoughts?
Not sure what to make of her... @R.Caerbannog , are you aware of her? Thoughts?
ThunderHorse
Verified Military
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The Defense is going to be all over this. Floyd's family had an 'independent' autopsy done and their results were released on Monday.
Cause of death: Homicide due to asphyxia.
Fuck a duck if a jury finds that officer 'not guilty', cause brother...you ain't seen riots in the street like you will that night.
Little piece of trivia, I don't have the numbers in front of me, but getting a murder conviction on a Minnesota police officer, is about as rare as @AWP attending a Nickleback concert.
The most recent was a Minneapolis Somali police officer convicted of killing a white, Australian woman. The BLM stance was, "of course you convict the black cop of killing a white woman'.
Blizzard
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Let's also not look past the fentanyl in his system or the evidence of recent methamphetamine use.
To me, some care is probably needed in how George Floyd is viewed and portrayed.
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He is going to get acquitted If the DA keeps upping the charges.
Shooting of Samuel DuBose - Wikipedia
watched this unfold locally. Cop canoed the guys head on camera. He was guilty of murder but not premeditated murder. The DA was stupid. Depending how the the laws are written in MN, this guy is going free.
Shooting of Samuel DuBose - Wikipedia
watched this unfold locally. Cop canoed the guys head on camera. He was guilty of murder but not premeditated murder. The DA was stupid. Depending how the the laws are written in MN, this guy is going free.
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My favorite on this (without diverging too far) is when people assume cops have more training than anybody else when it comes to firearms. In Florida, cops are only required to shoot their weapon for qualification once every two years. Defensive Tactics (ground fighting and take downs), same thing. Now to be fair, most agencies require internally to qualify once a year in all high liability areas (driving, firearms, DT). However, just like in the Army, there were cops that should NEVER have been issued a sidearm, badge, baton, or taser. I recall once instance at the range when a neighboring rural agency had one cop that had his slide rusted shut because he hadn't pulled his weapon from his holster since the last qual two years earlier. Some agencies try to do as much training as their budget, and the administration allows.
ETA: cops in most cases are just as or more poorly trained as your average joe firearms enthusiast. It's the ones that take a personal interest in firearms instruction and training that surpass their contemporaries. Also forgot, the once a year thing is, in most cases, a requirement for accreditation IIRC.
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I think the possibility increases day by day. Just like some famous cases here in FL, they will go for the sexy charges, and not the ones they could realistically prove. Then again this could all be for show. I am willing to bet money the defense is gonna throw the agency under the bus and try to go for something similar to qualified immunity. They will likely argue (among other tactics) that they followed policy and training, and it was the agency that is at fault for the death.
Blizzard
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It's pure politics at this point. You have a sitting AG in MN that's also a former U.S. Representative and a political activist. He sees personal opportunity.
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