National Protest and 'disband the cops' discussion (and now ICE)

[Devildoc]

His "sheep, sheepdog, wolf" thing sounds great, but it became a means of denigrating members of society while elevating others. It became a social perception instead of an analogy for what amounts to a division of labor. I remember how people who blindly followed others were lemmings, but now they are sheep. That can't be a coincidence.

I partially blame how we put veterans on an impossibly high pedestal because it perpetuated, and some revel in it, the sheep/ sheepdog social distinction. While I'm conservative, my fellow conservatives did this. Liberals aren't talking about sheep or sheepdogs...at least not in large numbers. Anecdotally, I don't know of a single left-leaning person to say they are a sheepdog.

Man I am quoting you a lot this morning. Reminds me of when I plagiarized in research papers (I kid....)

I agree. A lot of LEOs dig the widening chasm of "us vs them," as it does tend to put them on a pedestal. Now it's "LE and civilians." I get Grossman's intent, but a lot of cops went the wrong way with it.

 

[RackMaster]

Speaking as a civilian I am uncomfortable with whole Warrior mentality training that cops receive I would prefer for them to view themselves as peacekeepers

This is nothing against you but you are proof of the misinformation and pedestal around the term "peacekeeper". The peacekeeping concept is done by putting a well armed group of warrior's with their hands tied in the middle of a conflict.

Until we deal with the worst of our society and keep them separated, law enforcement will need some sort of warrior mentality. It's naïve to think we'll live in some utopia where a soft hand will keep the people safe.

 

[Jaknight]

This is nothing against you but you are proof of the misinformation and pedestal around the term "peacekeeper". The peacekeeping concept is done by putting a well armed group of warrior's with their hands tied in the middle of a conflict.

Until we deal with the worst of our society and keep them separated, law enforcement will need some sort of warrior mentality. It's naïve to think we'll live in some utopia where a soft hand will keep the people safe.

I have no beliefs that it will be a utopia nor do I think we only need a soft hand. I do think Telling Cops they are warriors is wrong they are not in some war zone where everyone is some hostile enemy. Is their a time when they do need to have the Warrior Mentality? Absolutely but it shouldn’t be their first mindset it should be the last one. Especially given how much power we give them

 

[Kaldak]

I have no beliefs that it will be a utopia nor do I think we only need a soft hand. I do think Telling Cops they are warriors is wrong they are not in some war zone where everyone is some hostile enemy. Is their a time when they do need to have the Warrior Mentality? Absolutely but it shouldn’t be their first mindset it should be the last one. Especially given how much power we give them

"Warrior" can have many meanings. It doesn't mean viewing everyone as hostile enemies.

 

[RackMaster]

I have no beliefs that it will be a utopia nor do I think we only need a soft hand. I do think Telling Cops they are warriors is wrong they are not in some war zone where everyone is some hostile enemy. Is their a time when they do need to have the Warrior Mentality? Absolutely but it shouldn’t be their first mindset it should be the last one. Especially given how much power we give them

The problem is that a large percentage of law enforcement encounters are with perceived threats. If they don't address those contacts with the right mindset, they will become a statistic; either end up in the hospital or a body bag. I suggest there's more problems with society than with law enforcement. We created this environment where law enforcement need to be aggressive in order to survive. And as it's been noted previously, that's not an easy thing to turn off. We accept that fact with the military and do a lot to help us adjust back to so called "normal".

 

[Devildoc]

The problem is that a large percentage of law enforcement encounters are with perceived threats. If they don't address those contacts with the right mindset, they will become a statistic; either end up in the hospital or a body bag. I suggest there's more problems with society than with law enforcement. We created this environment where law enforcement need to be aggressive in order to survive. And as it's been noted previously, that's not an easy thing to turn off. We accept that fact with the military and do a lot to help us adjust back to so called "normal".

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy, no? Cops encounter perceived threats with a higher degree of "warriorness", the threats amp up equal to what the cops are doing, and the cycle perpetuates. Totally agree part of the problem is society; probably way more so than with LE. The seedier, more dangerous aspects of society as a whole have become worse which indeed necessitates a different LE response.

I grew up watching The Andy Griffith Show, and the town I lived in wasn't too far off from Mayberry at the time...4 cops, one of who was the chief, who never carried a gun. But those were different times. WAY different.

 

[Jaknight]

The problem is that a large percentage of law enforcement encounters are with perceived threats. If they don't address those contacts with the right mindset, they will become a statistic; either end up in the hospital or a body bag. I suggest there's more problems with society than with law enforcement. We created this environment where law enforcement need to be aggressive in order to survive. And as it's been noted previously, that's not an easy thing to turn off. We accept that fact with the military and do a lot to help us adjust back to so called "normal".

How do we help Police than in regards to turning it off?

 

[RackMaster]

How do we help Police than in regards to turning it off?

I'm not in law enforcement and I'm sure what is done now, differs a lot between organizations. But basically, better regular mental health, decompression time after a difficult shift or even, increased and diverse training, especially scenario based training. From scenario based shooting, to de-escalation techniques and more grappling/hand to hand training. Remove the Politics from the senior leadership positions and have leader's support their people, instead of throwing them to media fire.

Someone that definitely can say things better than me, is Jocko Willink.

Retired Navy SEAL Jocko Willink: Why police officers need far more training

 

[GOTWA]

I have no beliefs that it will be a utopia nor do I think we only need a soft hand. I do think Telling Cops they are warriors is wrong they are not in some war zone where everyone is some hostile enemy. Is their a time when they do need to have the Warrior Mentality? Absolutely but it shouldn’t be their first mindset it should be the last one. Especially given how much power we give them

IMO, it's better to perceive a threat and be prepared, than to not. You can quickly assess the situation and make the determination a threat doesn't exist. You do things the other way, you don't come home. Same overseas, everyone is a threat until deemed otherwise, but that doesn't mean you have to approach the situation with hostile intentions.

The problem is that a large percentage of law enforcement encounters are with perceived threats. If they don't address those contacts with the right mindset, they will become a statistic; either end up in the hospital or a body bag. I suggest there's more problems with society than with law enforcement. We created this environment where law enforcement need to be aggressive in order to survive. And as it's been noted previously, that's not an easy thing to turn off. We accept that fact with the military and do a lot to help us adjust back to so called "normal".

Agreed.

How do we help Police than in regards to turning it off?

Experience. The problem with experience? It's often learned during the event you needed it the most. What about the people with the complete opposite mindset? I'd say a majority of cops lack the training, competence, and wherewithal to protect the populous from threats, let alone protect themselves.

 

[Devildoc]

RE: training, interestingly other countries with far fewer cop-related homicides in the line of duty also have much more training; some places require a degree.

Once upon a time in the military we had "on" at 100 and "off" at 0, no rotating dial to dial up or back response to threats. Nor did we have training in how to dial up/back aggression and "warrior" mindset. But now we do both, after decades of experience fighting the 3-block war and a realization that when we get home, we just can't "turn it off". LE deserves the same thing, but they are a package deal. You can't have one without the other.

 

[Locksteady]

Man I am quoting you a lot this morning. Reminds me of when I plagiarized in research papers (I kid....)

I agree. A lot of LEOs dig the widening chasm of "us vs them," as it does tend to put them on a pedestal. Now it's "LE and civilians." I get Grossman's intent, but a lot of cops went the wrong way with it.

It may be that the missing element mitigating or even precluding this deviation in Grossman's (and some others') intent with 'Warrior'-style training is a fundamental identification of the trainee with the community that is being policed.

A shift towards policies that prioritize or incentivize local-area or community hires may be a step in the right direction to correcting this "us vs. them" issue without sacrificing the training.

 

[RackMaster]

It may be that the missing element mitigating or even precluding this deviation in Grossman's (and some others') intent with 'Warrior'-style training is a fundamental identification of the trainee with the community that is being policed.

A shift towards policies that prioritize or incentivize local-area or community hires may be a step in the right direction to correcting this "us vs. them" issue without sacrificing the training.

You'll never get enough local applicants and not all will qualify. Also don't forget that currently, "snitches get stitches" isn't just a saying; it's a culture. And someone local that becomes an officer, will probably not be trusted.

 

[ThunderHorse]

Going on a ride along will open everyone's eyes. I did that three years ago and it showed me what that officer had to do for ten hours. You know how officers get dehumanized? When they have to give citations to old guys who are recycling cardboard out of "municipally owned" dumpsters.

We the people are responsible for the dehumanization of Law Enforcement Officers. We the people are the ones who vote on local ordinances or elect politicians that make the municipal codes that LEOs have to enforce. Do you think they want to spend all day handing out tickets to guys recycling waste?

It may be that the missing element mitigating or even precluding this deviation in Grossman's (and some others') intent with 'Warrior'-style training is a fundamental identification of the trainee with the community that is being policed.

A shift towards policies that prioritize or incentivize local-area or community hires may be a step in the right direction to correcting this "us vs. them" issue without sacrificing the training.

Every time someone brings up community policing, they are ones that don't get it. In crime ridden communities, a police officer living in the "hood" is just a target.

 

[Kraut783]

You'll never get enough local applicants and not all will qualify. Also don't forget that currently, "snitches get stitches" isn't just a saying; it's a culture. And someone local that becomes an officer, will probably not be trusted.

We get a lot of local community people who hire on to the dept. Not sure what departments you have ever worked on, but to say it's a culture of ALL law enforcement in the US is just wrong.

 

[Locksteady]

You'll never get enough local applicants

Fortunately, the suggestion wasn't to limit police departments to local hires. The suggestion was that a shift towards policies that prioritize and incentivize local hires may be a step in the right direction towards correcting the unintended "us vs. them" issue that may manifest after Warrior-style training. Additionally, prioritizing or incentivizing local hiring isn't necessary if you already have a surplus of local applicants, and areas in which your claim is true is the specific reason I mentioned that strategy.

and not all will qualify.

As with most applicant pools.

Also don't forget that currently, "snitches get stitches" isn't just a saying; it's a culture. And someone local that becomes an officer, will probably not be trusted.

The existence of other complications associated with local residents policing their own districts doesn't nullify the rationale for encouraging people who relate to and identify with the community at large to do the actual policing as a first step to addressing the widening "us vs. them" mentality that skews so many LEOs so far away from Grossman's supposed intent with Warrior training.

 

[RackMaster]

We get a lot of local community people who hire on to the dept. Not sure what departments you have ever worked on, but to say it's a culture of ALL law enforcement in the US is just wrong.

I wasn't referring to the law enforcement culture. It's a community culture or now more of a youth culture.

 

[DA SWO]

Could you rotate cops out of high crime precincts for short periods of time?

 

[RackMaster]

Could you rotate cops out of high crime precincts for short periods of time?

That's an excellent idea.

 

[Rabid Badger]

How do we help Police than in regards to turning it off?

Sincerely great Q.

What you will NEVER hear the dispatcher say: "Domestic as 2411 Ash but don't worry about it, it's no big deal". "Wreck at the intersection of x and x but no big deal" 2 dead, 4yrs old and 5yrs old".

Like @ThunderHorse mentioned - The old guy recycling cardboard? That's how he buys his food and booze and has for years and he just wants to be left alone. That pigsticker in his belt you took for granted Rookie? You shouldn't have!

No day is a normal day for the Blue line. They have a hard time turning it off and on ~ and the second they turn if off, they don't go home.

Grace and Situational Awareness get them home everyday. Just my 2.

 

[Ranger Psych]

How do we help Police than in regards to turning it off?

You teach your kids how to present as a safe and compliant person when dealing with law enforcement.

It's that fucking simple. Hell, I may get with a deputy locally and "get stopped" specifically so I can get the kid the experience of just chill, it's not a problem to talk with the cops, right wrong or indifferent.

That way you don't heebee jeebee the cops when you get stopped and keep that meter swinging from "safe" into "threat" and get treated as such.

Please note:
https://dam.tmz.com/document/f6/o/2020/07/08/f67735b0ca9c4e55a8070fb50af753a6.pdf

George Floyd acted the fool, plain and simple. What needs to happen when you deal with LE as a suspect, is yes sir no sir complying near instantly sir. They're the ref, they're in charge. You can either do the fuck they say or get a penalty, or ejected from the fucking game for being stupid. Your choice.