National Protest and 'disband the cops' discussion (and now ICE)

[policemedic]

Full disagree.

We didn't just show up at this exact moment in time. Tom Homan, Kristi Noem, and everyone else have been "speaking" to the community for months. They were labeled fascists, racists, xenophobes and all the rest. Their character was assassinated in the media and elected officials openly defied the federal government on this issue. That very community that somehow now deserves measured and soft-voiced conversation are the ones burning the American flag, waving Mexican flags, and hurling concrete (hitting officers in the head) at people trying to quell these riots. Armed drug and human traffickers, sexual predators, and violent humans are the "community" we are now supposed to treat with kid gloves, while they burn LA to the ground?


I reject your appeal to emotion about going into schools and grabbing parents- they violated the law coming here, they're illegal, we the people voted to for deportations of illegal immigrants. Those parents put their children at risk, if anything. Not only because they've violated and desecrated the law of the US and the constitution, but because this has a very real impact on our voting rights and election processes via including those illegals in the census. I think this is the 10th time I have said this, and I will keep saying it, because that vote of yours you are so protective of is diluted by the people in those schools and those parents. States like Cali (and other sanctuary states) not only earmark nearly hundreds of billions of your tax dollars to perpetuate this problem, those states are then granted outsize power in our system thanks to counting those illegals in the census for congressional seats.

I reject your opinion about what type of uniform the enforcement agency wears. This could have been handled by guys in suits talking softly in '21. It wasn't. ICE agents are being doxxed, shot at, and worse and you want them to wear- what? Something that doesn't trigger the illegal immigrants?

To your bolded above- good. They can support whatever marxist, soliciast regime they'd like from their country of origin. It makes no never mind to me. Sounds like a future problem you couldn't possibly even support with data you're making up about the feelings of children, but you do you.

BL- this is all just suicidal empathy. I will not be empathetic to the plights of illegals to our own demise. The barbarians are at the gate, and you wanna talk about what clothes we are wearing and how not to offend the kids of illegal immigrants while Los Angeles burns at the hand of funded, organized riots and full on domestic terrorism? Miss me.

-5

Thanks for saying so eloquently what I was going to say most disrespectfully.

 

[policemedic]

How many American citizens need to be illegally detained by ICE until it is too many? Serious question? Is it one? 100? 1000? Is it worth it to trample the rights of citizens to catch non citizens? I don’t think so.

How many have been illegally detained?

And since we’re talking about it, what does illegally detained mean to you?

 

[TLDR20]

How many have been illegally detained?

And since we’re talking about it, what does illegally detained mean to you?

I do not have an answer to that. Things are happening faster than people can sue the government.

If someone is held without cause by a law enforcement official for no other reason than to prove they are a citizen, which as I pointed out is not something that is easy to do, that is a 4th amendment violation. In most states I do not have to identify myself at all to law enforcement unless I am suspected of having committed a crime. It is not a crime to exist.

 

[amlove21]

@amlove21

Can you point out where I defended “the largest mass migration in history”?

Being against one small point of enforcement because I think that it is illegal, and has been proven so time and again, and goes against the fabric of our nation does not mean that I am pro “mass migration”.

What I have said, and will say again, is that if I was in one of these shitholes, I’d do everything I could to come to America. I don’t for a second believe that even a vast majority of the immigrants in our country are nefarious. I do agree they are here illegally and we should discourage them coming here.

You are painting everyone with any view counter at all to yours with wide brush strokes.

I'll hit you with the BLUF (I was gonna say TLDR version but that was a bit cheeky).

BLUF- Your contention here is that any detention of a legal citizen is a constitutional abomination, for which you will not stand. You've further stated that anything akin to "asking for your papers" is an egregious act, one that leads to the Hegelian dialectic and the removal of another's rights for security, under any situation, absolutely can't be tolerated.

You appear to be against the enforcement agency conducting enforcement of codified US law, set forth by the Executive branch, who the people of the United States elected; you brought up a long history of what you deem to be unconstitutional behavior, and your opinion is that illegals have the same 4th Amendment rights and due process as citizens.

Using that framework, illegals are entitled to those rights the same as you are, including ICE *not being able to ask them to prove citizenship*, which would then logically follow that they don't get arrested or detained. The closest you came to an actual position during this talk was "I don't agree with the idiots in LA" and that the "protestors should be dispersed, violently if necessary." "Discouraging people from coming here" is already happening; border crossings and apprehension are down 99%... that doesn't fix the problem now, the barbarians aren't at the gate anymore, they're in the house.

None of your other points support the deportation of illegals, implicitly or explicitly. Because you haven't said anything to the contrary, and reading your arguments, it's very clear that you support the people who came here in the largest mass migration in human history, affording them the rights and due process of actual American citizens even after you agreed they broke the law getting here. You vehemently resist the administration and the enforcement arm of the administration to deport them. That's why I said the arguments you're making support the issue- because there's no way to square the circle in a way that they don't.

The longer version-

You've been very clear about your opinion of ICE and their unconstitutional behavior, and provided no other information on what exactly ICE is supposed to do to conduct the mass deportations necessary to stop this national security threat.

So, when you defend the rights of illegal immigrants against what you deem to be an agency that acts in unconstitutional ways against those illegal immigrants, and provide no solutions for ICE to investigate, detain, arrest, and deport these folks, I am of the opinion that you are supporting the underlying issue.

This has been my issue with your line of reasoning today.

By your own words (paraphrase) -

"ICE has a long history of unconstitutional behavior. It's not about the "protestors", ICE shouldn't be allowed to ask ANYONE about their citizenship status, lest they detain a single American citizen in the process of trying to find illegals. The vast majority of these people aren't malicious"

Suppose I disassociate the actual arguments you're making from the bumper stickers about constitutional rights. In that case, you're saying that ICE can't inspect, detain, or ask for identification of individuals who may be here illegally. So again- what are they supposed to do? What standard for investigation and detention would meet your standard for exactly how ICE is supposed to enforce immigration law?


To your bolded- "nefarious" literally means "(typically of an action or activity) wicked or criminal." So we disagree there. If you violate 8 US Code Section 1325, you are nefarious. I assume you mean "a bad person" or "malicious in nature". Even if that was true and we based the number of truly terrible people out of 10M people here illegally (I'm being gracious with 10M), what do you think that number would be? If we used the percentage of total Americans currently serving sentences in supermax prisons (0.39%) x 10M- 39,000. 39k violent criminals, already here illegally, and your contention is ICE bad, you're not allowed to ask anyone for their papers, AND you don't know how I characterize that as "in support of the mass migration?"

 

[Kraut783]

One of the problems we have seen....

Immigration arrests and deportations are civil detainments/arrest....not criminal (there are criminal statutes related to immigration, but not with regular illegals)

So, the regular laws that govern criminal arrests don't play in this.....so, if a team goes to an illegals residence and they won't open the door....not much you can do. You don't have the ability to force the entry as with most felony offenses....the arresting agents just have to walk away.

Immigration law is a weird animal.....

 

[TLDR20]

I'll hit you with the BLUF (I was gonna say TLDR version but that was a bit cheeky).

BLUF- Your contention here is that any detention of a legal citizen is a constitutional abomination, for which you will not stand. You've further stated that anything akin to "asking for your papers" is an egregious act, one that leads to the Hegelian dialectic and the removal of another's rights for security, under any situation, absolutely can't be tolerated.

You appear to be against the enforcement agency conducting enforcement of codified US law, set forth by the Executive branch, who the people of the United States elected; you brought up a long history of what you deem to be unconstitutional behavior, and your opinion is that illegals have the same 4th Amendment rights and due process as citizens.

Using that framework, illegals are entitled to those rights the same as you are, including ICE *not being able to ask them to prove citizenship*, which would then logically follow that they don't get arrested or detained. The closest you came to an actual position during this talk was "I don't agree with the idiots in LA" and that the "protestors should be dispersed, violently if necessary." "Discouraging people from coming here" is already happening; border crossings and apprehension are down 99%... that doesn't fix the problem now, the barbarians aren't at the gate anymore, they're in the house.

None of your other points support the deportation of illegals, implicitly or explicitly. Because you haven't said anything to the contrary, and reading your arguments, it's very clear that you support the people who came here in the largest mass migration in human history, affording them the rights and due process of actual American citizens even after you agreed they broke the law getting here. You vehemently resist the administration and the enforcement arm of the administration to deport them. That's why I said the arguments you're making support the issue- because there's no way to square the circle in a way that they don't.

The longer version-

You've been very clear about your opinion of ICE and their unconstitutional behavior, and provided no other information on what exactly ICE is supposed to do to conduct the mass deportations necessary to stop this national security threat.

So, when you defend the rights of illegal immigrants against what you deem to be an agency that acts in unconstitutional ways against those illegal immigrants, and provide no solutions for ICE to investigate, detain, arrest, and deport these folks, I am of the opinion that you are supporting the underlying issue.

This has been my issue with your line of reasoning today.

By your own words (paraphrase) -

"ICE has a long history of unconstitutional behavior. It's not about the "protestors", ICE shouldn't be allowed to ask ANYONE about their citizenship status, lest they detain a single American citizen in the process of trying to find illegals. The vast majority of these people aren't malicious"

Suppose I disassociate the actual arguments you're making from the bumper stickers about constitutional rights. In that case, you're saying that ICE can't inspect, detain, or ask for identification of individuals who may be here illegally. So again- what are they supposed to do? What standard for investigation and detention would meet your standard for exactly how ICE is supposed to enforce immigration law?


To your bolded- "nefarious" literally means "(typically of an action or activity) wicked or criminal." So we disagree there. If you violate 8 US Code Section 1325, you are nefarious. I assume you mean "a bad person" or "malicious in nature". Even if that was true and we based the number of truly terrible people out of 10M people here illegally (I'm being gracious with 10M), what do you think that number would be? If we used the percentage of total Americans currently serving sentences in supermax prisons (0.39%) x 10M- 39,000. 39k violent criminals, already here illegally, and your contention is ICE bad, you're not allowed to ask anyone for their papers, AND you don't know how I characterize that as "in support of the mass migration?"

I believe, and the Supreme Court agrees that if you are in the United States you are protected by the constitution and entitled to the protections of it and to due process. Like everyone says in the 2A threads if you want to change shit change it via an amendment to the constitution. It is the thing right? Right?

I cannot begin to tell you how to enforce immigration policy. I am not an expert. I think that it is a slippery slope for the feds to walk around demanding papers. Period. I have a problem with it in all contexts. I can say confidently I do not hold a strong belief about immigration like you do. Of the things that I think affect me, illegal immigration is low on the list. I am sure there are violent felons amongst the immigrant population. I do not think they by and large are even close to the largest population of violent criminals as a population. I think we should eradicate MS13. I think we should go hands on in Mexico and fuck the cartels up. We should do the same in El Salvador and other places where gangs have ruined the lives of the populations of their countries, as well as exporting their terrorism to the US.

 

[Muppet]

@amlove21
@AWP

 

[amlove21]

Wild position to reconcile, @TLDR20 Internally, externally, all of it.

I think it would be helpful to examine the impacts of immigration on legislation, taxes, voting, national security, and education. But if you don’t care that much because it doesn’t affect you in day to day life, don’t. You don’t have to be an expert by any means, but I’d argue it probably impacts you in a much more real sense thank you assume.

 

[TLDR20]

I

Wild position to reconcile, @TLDR20 Internally, externally, all of it.

I think it would be helpful to examine the impacts of immigration on legislation, taxes, voting, national security, and education. But if you don’t care that much because it doesn’t affect you in day to day life, don’t. You don’t have to be an expert by any means, but I’d argue it probably impacts you in a much more real sense thank you assume.

I mean, I care but I certainly don’t care enough to argue about it with you.

 

[ThunderHorse]

I believe, and the Supreme Court agrees that if you are in the United States you are protected by the constitution and entitled to the protections of it and to due process. Like everyone says in the 2A threads if you want to change shit change it via an amendment to the constitution. It is the thing right? Right?

I cannot begin to tell you how to enforce immigration policy. I am not an expert. I think that it is a slippery slope for the feds to walk around demanding papers. Period. I have a problem with it in all contexts. I can say confidently I do not hold a strong belief about immigration like you do. Of the things that I think affect me, illegal immigration is low on the list. I am sure there are violent felons amongst the immigrant population. I do not think they by and large are even close to the largest population of violent criminals as a population. I think we should eradicate MS13. I think we should go hands on in Mexico and fuck the cartels up. We should do the same in El Salvador and other places where gangs have ruined the lives of the populations of their countries, as well as exporting their terrorism to the US.

You enforce immigration policy by detaining illegals and deporting them. If they are violent criminals, well I'd send them to El Salvador. A significant portion of the MAMs who came over during the Biden administration bullshit were violent criminals, records that could be verified btw! And they roamed our streets and committed crimes. Laken Riley is not an anomaly. There are recidivist illegals that roam our streets who have raped and murdered not only American women, but women from their own country.

Either you conduct ICE raids, and deport people, or you do Byron shit.

Trump secured our border for the first time since Clinton, why are we having this conversation?

 

[Jaknight]

Full disagree.

We didn't just show up at this exact moment in time. Tom Homan, Kristi Noem, and everyone else have been "speaking" to the community for months. They were labeled fascists, racists, xenophobes and all the rest. Their character was assassinated in the media and elected officials openly defied the federal government on this issue. That very community that somehow now deserves measured and soft-voiced conversation are the ones burning the American flag, waving Mexican flags, and hurling concrete (hitting officers in the head) at people trying to quell these riots. Armed drug and human traffickers, sexual predators, and violent humans are the "community" we are now supposed to treat with kid gloves, while they burn LA to the ground?


I reject your appeal to emotion about going into schools and grabbing parents- they violated the law coming here, they're illegal, we the people voted to for deportations of illegal immigrants. Those parents put their children at risk, if anything. Not only because they've violated and desecrated the law of the US and the constitution, but because this has a very real impact on our voting rights and election processes via including those illegals in the census. I think this is the 10th time I have said this, and I will keep saying it, because that vote of yours you are so protective of is diluted by the people in those schools and those parents. States like Cali (and other sanctuary states) not only earmark nearly hundreds of billions of your tax dollars to perpetuate this problem, those states are then granted outsize power in our system thanks to counting those illegals in the census for congressional seats.

I reject your opinion about what type of uniform the enforcement agency wears. This could have been handled by guys in suits talking softly in '21. It wasn't. ICE agents are being doxxed, shot at, and worse and you want them to wear- what? Something that doesn't trigger the illegal immigrants?

To your bolded above- good. They can support whatever marxist, soliciast regime they'd like from their country of origin. It makes no never mind to me. Sounds like a future problem you couldn't possibly even support with data you're making up about the feelings of children, but you do you.

BL- this is all just suicidal empathy. I will not be empathetic to the plights of illegals to our own demise. The barbarians are at the gate, and you wanna talk about what clothes we are wearing and how not to offend the kids of illegal immigrants while Los Angeles burns at the hand of funded, organized riots and full on domestic terrorism? Miss me.

-5

I'm not talking about murderers or traffickers. Not every person being rounded up is some god-awful criminal who deserves the harshest treatment. Painting them all the same is just wrong. And let’s be real LA wouldn’t be “burning” if Trump didn’t turn this into a dog-and-pony show. And yeah, fuck the flag-waving idiots and the violent protestors


I understand your rejection. It’s fair you believe they broke the law, they should be treated like criminals and deported, even if all they did was cross over. I dont think like that never will. You talk about the Constitution being violated by their presence, but it sure seems like ICE is the one violating it grabbing U.S. citizens, ignoring due process. Maybe they should care more about the Constitution themselves before waving it around as a shield.


And while we’re on voting? I’ll say it plain: lobbying, dark money, and corporate capture affect my vote far more than some undocumented housekeeper. You want to fix elections? Start with the billionaires, not the busboys.


You say uniforms don’t matter. Then why not wear a regular police uniform? Why not suits? What’s the point of tactical camo in a Home Depot parking lot or a school? It’s not about protection. It’s about performance. It's about theater


And barbarians at the gate? Why should I be worried about people outside when I’ve already got citizens inside the gates—on the left, telling me what to think, what to say, what to feel—and on the right, more than eager to strap on their jackboots and turn on their own countrymen for stepping out of line.


I reject the right’s fear-mongering and paranoia about illegal immigrants. On the list of problems I have with America, they rank at the absolute bottom.

 

[Locksteady]

I understand your rejection. It’s fair you believe they broke the law, they should be treated like criminals and deported, even if all they did was cross over.

If you don't agree with current US laws about the consequences for people illegally crossing into US territory, then part of this discussion is moot.

I dont think like that never will. You talk about the Constitution being violated by their presence, but it sure seems like ICE is the one violating it grabbing U.S. citizens, ignoring due process.

ICE agents violating the law by ignoring due process doesn't justify other people breaking the law to show up here.

 

[BlackSmokeRisinG]

I got no problem with ICE detaining people suspected of being in the country illegally, just like I know what might happen to me if I overstayed my visa somewhere.

America is a privilege, paid for by all those who came before us. It is no longer a forest without infrastructure. We don't need millions of random new people yearly, especially ones from leftist shithole countries.

We are in debt, we have a housing/rent crisis, a shit economy, more fentanyl deaths than the rest of Earth by far, and a party supported by about half the country that will burn things down when they don't get their way. That's what this is about, nothing less, nothing more.

 

[AWP]

A couple of points from the peanut gallery:
- This thread had 4 unread pages when I signed in. Normally I'd mentally check out and glaze over by the end of the first/ beginning of the second page. I made it to the third before that happened, so kudos to everyone for having a civil-ish discussion.
- Maybe this changes after the brain fatigue above, but our discussion here centers more on the "how" than the "why" and I think that's significant, if not widely recognized.
- Even I know "arrested" and "detained" are different beasts. Perhaps the only thing I can add here is what people think those look like and what's acceptable for the "detained" part. Kept in place while the issue is sorted out? Moved against your will to a tent city until the issue is sorted out?
- Last, personal, and perhaps inflammatory. A decade and-a-half ago I came on here and ocmplained about contractors being asked for their "papers" on places like Bagram. An E-5 and above could stop us and ask to show our "orders" (Letter of Authorization) given to a contractor. Not a CAC card, but we had to produce actual paperwork to prove we belonged. Why?

Illegal motherfuckers on the base, mostly Indian nationals.

I came on here and complained, whined if you prefer, and a few of you laughed at me. I'd like to invite those people to fuck off into the sun. This shit ain't new and proves once again how practices escalate. "This is unrelated" you might say. Is it really? It was cool then given the circumstances, the threat posed by an illegal third-country national, but NOW people are going to complain? I guess Bagram, Kandahar, and elsewhere didn't count so it didn't matter? Yeah, nah, fuck off to anyone who laughed back in the day.

Weird, it is almost as if a state-issued ID where one has to prove citizenship in order to vote would prevent 99% of the "how" discussion. Well, shit, guess I'm racist for that opinion.

<3's!

 

[Florida173]

And let’s be real LA wouldn’t be “burning” if Trump didn’t turn this into a dog-and-pony show.

umm.. It was though.. what are you talking about? Trump didn't push for NG and Marines till at least Saturday afternoon. There was already an escalation since Friday

You talk about the Constitution being violated by their presence, but it sure seems like ICE is the one violating it grabbing U.S. citizens, ignoring due process.

What do you mean they are violating due process?

 

[Gunz]

You say uniforms don’t matter. Then why not wear a regular police uniform? Why not suits? What’s the point of tactical camo in a Home Depot parking lot or a school? It’s not about protection. It’s about performance. It's about theater

"...why not wear a regular police uniform..." Because--in case you haven't noticed--the streets are a fucking war-zone. And you can't chase perps in dress shoes and a tie. And cops deserve the same protective and tactical gear that soldiers wear.

2023 according to the FBI:

-- 79,091 officers assaulted.
-- 62 officers shot dead.
-- 422 officers wounded by gunfire

 

[amlove21]

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[amlove21]

I mean, I care but I certainly don’t care enough to argue about it with you.

Well now I don’t know if you’re just laissez faire in your political positions or if I don’t rate a conversation! Guess we will never know.

 

[Box]

So before I get toooo confused about who is oppressing who...

Where does the California National guard get its Soldiers?
Are they from Trumpistan?
Are they federal shock troops specially trained to oppress the rights of law abiding citizens?

OR

Are these troops drawn from the population of the Democratic Peoples Republic of California?
I'm just asking for a friend because I think it matters.
These are citizens of the United States AND the State of California.
They are also the people that serve in the CANG.

Their leaders are bound by oath to well and faithfully discharge their duties and like ALL US Servicemembers - they are expected to refuse to follow unlawful orders. That seems to create quite the pickle.
Are the California citizens that serve in the CANG trustworthy enough to know NOT to abuse their office - not to violate human rights - not to carry out unlawful orders - not to needlessly cause harm to those that are LITERALLY their fucking neighbors?
Keep in mind - these California citizens serving in the CANG are by all logical reasoning statistically more likely to support folks like Bass, Newsome, Harris, Pelosi, Waters, and even Schiff because it is California citizens (like the ones in the CANG) that vote for these people.
It would seem like everyone wants to be in the CANG until it's time to do CANG shit.

OR

Is it possible that one could say the following event took place in an alternate universe - is it even possible that this could happen in OUR universe...
"Hey Bob - stop using that hammer to break up those cinder blocks in that pallet that miraculously showed up near the protest! Stop throwing those hunks of concrete at innocent people, cars, cops, shop windows, and government officials and go get your OCPs on because we've been called up to do some CANG shit !!!
-We need to go make people stop breaking up the cinder blocks from all of those of those pallets that miraculously showed up near the protest. We also need to tell them to stop throwing those hunks of concrete at innocent people, cars, cops, shop windows, and government officials and ESPECIALLY make sure that you let them know that WE were just on their side, throwing those hunks of concrete at innocent people, cars, cops, shop windows, and government officials.

So -in conclusion:
Either the entire CANG and all of their leaders are fully aware that there is NOTHING "illegal" about what is going on and they are well and faithfully discharging their duty to uphold and defend the Constitution while the entire USA is being gaslit by the usual band of self righteous, virtue signaling, leftist, activist, bullshit spewing democrat wing of the communist party and they are just doing what needs to be done while the usual band of self righteous, virtue signaling, leftist, activist, bullshit spewing democrat wing of the communist party that THEY elected continue to gaslight the entire USA

OR

The CANG is just full of shit because they swore an oath to Newsome and should be refusing to follow the unlawful orders of the Orangeman - because it can't be both.

...again, just asking for a friend.

 

[757]