National Protest and 'disband the cops' discussion (please review page 1)

[Marauder06]

There is no way to prove a counterfactual, but I will go ahead anyway since all those rules don't matter and the points are made up.

Police showing up to a "non-violent" call deters someone from getting more violent. Agitated, mentally ill or nefarious folks that are presented with some social workers talking about their feelings are going to include violent solutions in their calculus more often than they would if presented with armed LEOs. Change my mind.

Yep, One of the things I remember our instructors teaching us at the police academy is the deterrent value of "presence." If you're there and you look ready (and, frankly, armed) you can deter a whole lot of badness. In my Academy class there was a super-nice guy who was something like 6'9" and looked like a Serbian war criminal. No one wanted to screw around when that guy was nearby.

I also saw something similar when I was in the Army. I think I mentioned this on the site before, but when I was a company commander in Korea, my first sergeant and I got regularly tagged for "presence patrol," which involved us going into all the "juicy bars" (i.e. bar/brothels) and other places frequented by US soldiers in the Uijongbu area. I deeply disliked this tasker, because 1) my soldiers were Korean linguists and didn't frequent those sorts of establishments because they could speak the language and would go to places that US soldiers didn't typically go., and 2) we had to be unarmed.

My first sergeant and I came out of one juicy joint near the train station and walked right into a standoff between a group of drunk GIs and some Filipino pimps armed with switchblades. Us being there gave the GIs a reason to back off and save face, and the Filipinos didn't want to fight because they were now badly outnumbered and outflanked. Good times.

 

[Kraut783]

We have uniformed Public Safety officers (non-armed or sworn) who will respond to accidents, road issues, and can take reports from victims. It works pretty well and does free up regular patrol officers.

But, they would never respond to an ongoing disturbance...be it a verbal altercation or more.

 

[Box]

Crimes should be dealt with by people who are trained and equipped to fight crimes. So many "non-violent" crimes quickly turn violent when someone intercedes to stop the criminality. Domestics, shoplifting, and burglary are examples that immediately come to mind.

This is an easy one to answer...

Domestic call - social worker responds, get murdered by a wife beater thats raging on meth - neighbors dial 911 - "real cops" arrive and shoot the mostly nonviolent wife beater - case closed

Shoplifting - fuck stores - big business makes tooooo much money already. Citizens need to take ownership of the means of production so that shoplifting will o longer be a problem.

Burglary?
C'mon man - don't resist, let the burglar take have you 42 inch TV then call the social worker cops to report the theft of your 60 inch TV and to schedule some post incident counseling...
...then file a claim with your insurance company to replace the 72 inch TV that was just stolen from your house

EASY.PEASY. LEMON.SQUEEZY.
We don't need no stinking badges !!!


NO MORE COPS
NO MORE COPS
NO MORE COPS

COME ON FOLKS - SAY IT WITH ME...

NO MORE COPS
NO MORE COPS
NO MORE COPS

 

[Gunz]

Less cops just means I can drive faster with less risk

No cop, no stop.

 

[amlove21]

We have uniformed Public Safety officers (non-armed or sworn) who will respond to accidents, road issues, and can take reports from victims. It works pretty well and does free up regular patrol officers.

But, they would never respond to an ongoing disturbance...be it a verbal altercation or more.

A traffic accident is an ongoing disturbance. A road issue is an ongoing disturbance.

 

[Cookie_]

You're trying to argue the point you wished I made, instead of the one I did make. This was my post:

View attachment 48005

"We all knew this would be the outcome." And yes, we all knew that Defund the Police would be absolutely rejected, because it was absolutely insane. You choosing to cherry-pick an outlier from a list that shows a clear trend in the opposite direction of the argument you chose to make doesn't change that.

Fair critique; I was arguing more about the topic of the article than your posted statement. I dont have an arguement against it.

As for this:

Nope, it was a stupid idea since day one, because from day one it ALWAYS meant "defund the police." If they wanted to "reform" the police, the movement would be "reform the police" or "make City Hall make better funding decisions," not "defund the police."

It did start with stop giving the cops more money to do things they arent trained for, and give those funds to social/community services. That said, when have libs/leftist ever been good at slogans?
It was an intentionally charged statement to get attention that proved to have backfired for them.

This part broke my brain. Can you clarify the disposition/composition of the community service patrol and what non-violent crimes they would respond to vs police?

@Kraut783 hit on some ways I've seen it. Again, I'm not privy to what their dispatch SOP is for if it's community service alone or with LEO.

A few situations in which I've interacted with them:

-showed up at an accident with an LEO, then the LEO bounced once they determine the situation is calm.

-when shit was stolen out of my car.

-to take information about an abandoned vehicle on my street.

-to do a wellness check (on an older neighbor)

-with an LEO, to respond to a noise complaint/dispute amongst my other neighbors.

It seems like they show up alone if its something that might be seen as routine/low priority and with an LEO for instances that might have some more "tempers" attached.

‐-------------

The best fast food burgers are at Cook-Out. I've never had them sober so maybe that colors my ranking, but nothing beats a burger+fries+chicken wrap+shake for ~$7.00

 

[The Quartermaster]

Can someone please explain to me why standing right where the police are, filming them, and asking for names and badge numbers is a good idea to antagonize them? They aren't defending our freedoms by annoying cops. The harassers are not doing anything positive actually, they're just proof that being able to give hickory shampoos to smarten up idiots was a good thing when it used to be legal to do so.

Yeah I know, Quartermaster man bad.

 

[Kraut783]

They think they are sticking it to the "man"...and people get off on doing this.

 

[Muppet]

It's honestly retarded.

 

[The Quartermaster]

It definitely is. Facebook reels is full of it too. It feels like if I block five of them, twenty more idiotic pages needing to be blocked too just sprout up the next day.

 

[AWP]

My favorite videos of late are the smarmy know-it-alls who come to FL and behave like they are anywhere but Florida. If an LEO asks for your license, registration, and proof of insurance, you have to give it up. Asked to step out of the car? Legal. Ask the LEO for badge # and a supervisor? Legal. Sitting in the car until said supe arrives? Not legal.

"In California, they...so how are they supposed to know the rules in FL?" It's called being an adult. Could LEOs maybe do a better job of stating this once? Probably. Do they have to? No.

Being an adult isn't hard, but we have too many children cosplaying as adult edge lords. Here's your medium-rare proned out with a side dish of resisting arrest without violence. Enjoy getting booked on your vacation and welcome to Florida!

 

[Marauder06]

Can someone please explain to me why standing right where the police are, filming them, and asking for names and badge numbers is a good idea to antagonize them? They aren't defending our freedoms by annoying cops. The harassers are not doing anything positive actually, they're just proof that being able to give hickory shampoos to smarten up idiots was a good thing when it used to be legal to do so.

Yeah I know, Quartermaster man bad.

I was doing routine patrol work at a local fair, I was minding my own business and passed a group of teenage boys who were also minding their own business, I didn't give them a second look and they didn't glance my way. As my partner and I passed one of them said "Hey! Name and badge number!" I looked at him, he looked at the ground, we walked on. I guess the kid thought it was a funny joke. His buddies thought he was a dumbass.

I mean, if you really want my name and/or badge number, it's right there on my shirt. You can read, right?

 

[Devildoc]

My favorite videos of late are the smarmy know-it-alls who come to FL and behave like they are anywhere but Florida. If an LEO asks for your license, registration, and proof of insurance, you have to give it up. Asked to step out of the car? Legal. Ask the LEO for badge # and a supervisor? Legal. Sitting in the car until said supe arrives? Not legal.

"In California, they...so how are they supposed to know the rules in FL?" It's called being an adult. Could LEOs maybe do a better job of stating this once? Probably. Do they have to? No.

Being an adult isn't hard, but we have too many children cosplaying as adult edge lords. Here's your medium-rare proned out with a side dish of resisting arrest without violence. Enjoy getting booked on your vacation and welcome to Florida!

Putting on my devil's advocate hat: Youtube and the interwebs are filled with a metric shit-ton of illegal Terry stops and 4th amendment violations, in Florida and about 49 other states.

Taking off the devil's advocate hat and putting on my adult and father hat: do what they say, film, it, if there are issues then you sue and get the douchebags fired.

 

[Cookie_]

Could LEOs maybe do a better job of stating this once? Probably. Do they have to? No.

This is the main reason these "auditors" exist/became popular. They get content by baiting officers who forget that a large portion of the job is "customer service".

It costs nothing additional (in time or effort) to state "citizen, you are required to comply with xyz under FL law."

 

[Devildoc]

We have some cops on board, some of us have been been LEOs, and most of us know LEOs. Generally I trust them as a profession, I follow the "don't start nothin', won't be nothin'" rule of thumb. But a traffic stop? I trust most cops during a traffic stop as much as I trust gas station sushi.

I do think that given the however many traffic stops there are a day and the fact it's the ones that go south that end up on social media that perspective is biased.

 

[AWP]

I was doing routine patrol work at a local fair, I was minding my own business and passed a group of teenage boys who were also minding their own business, I didn't give them a second look and they didn't glance my way. As my partner and I passed one of them said "Hey! Name and badge number!" I looked at him, he looked at the ground, we walked on. I guess the kid thought it was a funny joke. His buddies thought he was a dumbass.

I mean, if you really want my name and/or badge number, it's right there on my shirt. You can read, right?

Tell the kid you beat those into his mom's headboard last Saturday night and he should look there.

Putting on my devil's advocate hat: Youtube and the interwebs are filled with a metric shit-ton of illegal Terry stops and 4th amendment violations, in Florida and about 49 other states.

Taking off the devil's advocate hat and putting on my adult and father hat: do what they say, film, it, if there are issues then you sue and get the douchebags fired.

Both are fair observations. PLENTY of videos out there of people with and without a badge acting like fools. That said, knowing the basics of local laws is on the citizen. Should an officer at least say something like "It is a law in Florida for you to..."? I think so. Is it required? No. Humans are humans, sometimes you can de-escalate a situation with a simple explanation or question.

We taught our daughter the same thing. Shut up and do as you're told. We'll fight any legal issues later, not at the scene where it can go sideways in the blink of an eye. Explicitly state you do not consent to a search/ they may not enter your home. No sudden movements, tell the officer if you are moving or reaching for something like paperwork in your car's center console. Say little to nothing. Don't admit to even a glass of wine 2-3 hours ago, that you were coming from or going to any specific place, etc. Be smart and fight any perceived injustice later.

I do not have the same almost child-like trust in LEO's like I did 30-ish+ years ago. Now? I don't consider them enemies, but I don't consider them friends. I respect them but don't trust them. I don't think they are out to get me, but they aren't on my side.

End of the day I believe the overwhelming majority are just decent people doing a job they believe in who want to go home and see their family. I also believe far too many (but still a minority) are dickheads on a power trip who have no business wearing a badge. Society has gone sideways in the last 20-30 years and LEO standards aren't what they used to be, so now we have this vortex of stupid colliding with social media and doing it for likes and clicks.

TLDR: Where's the Space Rock?

 

[The Quartermaster]

This is the main reason these "auditors" exist/became popular. They get content by baiting officers who forget that a large portion of the job is "customer service".

It costs nothing additional (in time or effort) to state "citizen, you are required to comply with xyz under FL law."

I see no point in deliberately trolling and when they get the response that gets hits and goes viral it's because an asshole wanted to collide with another asshole. I have zero sympathy.

It's infantile. Like wanting to prank someone and getting the reaction they hadn't planned on for and then whining about it but still getting off on the attention that it generated for the POS.

I know quite a few of these "customer services" persons. It's generally not wise to mess with them because we don't know the situation that brought them there or the stress that they are in. I can personally tell you that playing fuck-fuck with an officer who just finished a call that had multiple dead children and dead pets in a car wreck, and now responding to the next call on a traffic bender isn't in a mood at all to being playing games with a troll.

They want customer service? Go to the department and find the first person at the desk behind the glass. That's what they are there for. Use it or STFU and don't mess with people you have no right morally to get a rise from.

 

[Devildoc]

Tell the kid you beat those into his mom's headboard last Saturday night and he should look there.



Both are fair observations. PLENTY of videos out there of people with and without a badge acting like fools. That said, knowing the basics of local laws is on the citizen. Should an officer at least say something like "It is a law in Florida for you to..."? I think so. Is it required? No. Humans are humans, sometimes you can de-escalate a situation with a simple explanation or question.

We taught our daughter the same thing. Shut up and do as you're told. We'll fight any legal issues later, not at the scene where it can go sideways in the blink of an eye. Explicitly state you do not consent to a search/ they may not enter your home. No sudden movements, tell the officer if you are moving or reaching for something like paperwork in your car's center console. Say little to nothing. Don't admit to even a glass of wine 2-3 hours ago, that you were coming from or going to any specific place, etc. Be smart and fight any perceived injustice later.

I do not have the same almost child-like trust in LEO's like I did 30-ish+ years ago. Now? I don't consider them enemies, but I don't consider them friends. I respect them but don't trust them. I don't think they are out to get me, but they aren't on my side.

End of the day I believe the overwhelming majority are just decent people doing a job they believe in who want to go home and see their family. I also believe far too many (but still a minority) are dickheads on a power trip who have no business wearing a badge. Society has gone sideways in the last 20-30 years and LEO standards aren't what they used to be, so now we have this vortex of stupid colliding with social media and doing it for likes and clicks.

TLDR: Where's the Space Rock?

Well said.

Regarding the highlighted/italicized, this is something that annoys me (in general). I have heard judges say "ignorance of the law is no excuse." Ummm, OK, basic DMV test traffic law, sure, OK, but how, exactly, should we be held liable for over 60,000 pages of laws in the US Code and about a third of that for most state laws? Isn't that lawyers are for?

Basic, local laws, I don't disagree with you. But it gets so damn messy and convoluted, once I heard a judge say that during a complicated tort case where one of the lawyers said something like 'I'll have to look that one up...'

Can you imagine if I said to a patient with chest pain wanting to know if they are having a heart attack, "ignorance of medicine is no excuse"?

Anyways, rant over...

 

[Marauder06]

Tell the kid you beat those into his mom's headboard last Saturday night and he should look there.



I do not have the same almost child-like trust in LEO's like I did 30-ish+ years ago. Now? I don't consider them enemies, but I don't consider them friends. I respect them but don't trust them. I don't think they are out to get me, but they aren't on my side.

End of the day I believe the overwhelming majority are just decent people doing a job they believe in who want to go home and see their family. I also believe far too many (but still a minority) are dickheads on a power trip who have no business wearing a badge. Society has gone sideways in the last 20-30 years and LEO standards aren't what they used to be, so now we have this vortex of stupid colliding with social media and doing it for likes and clicks.

TLDR: Where's the Space Rock?

I tell my family something similar. "Cops are not your friends. They don't know you. They are people trying to do a job. And they are not all good people. Be polite, don't let them in your car or our house, don't consent to any searches, don't admit to anything, and ask if you can call me."

 

[TLDR20]

Maybe I’m jaded from Audit the Audit, but I don’t think many (probably not a majority) cops have citizens constitutional rights anywhere in their mind when interacting with their fellow citizens. We only see a small slice, and the slice we see paints the profession in a bad light.

I have basically zero interaction with police, and I prefer to keep it that way.