National Protest and 'disband the cops' discussion (please review page 1)

[TLDR20]

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Do you think conflating the unconstitutional detainment of legal citizens with the broader operations of ICE/LE in the context of our very real national security threat environment is a valid argument?

99.9% of Americans aren't required to by law. Profiling isn't illegal (inherently), so if someone just randomly asked for your passport or birth certificate at the restaurant I would get it if you got pissed, but I would also be pretty shocked.

How much do you think unconstitutional detainment has happened recently? How big of a problem is it in your estimation? And what would be the reasonable fix here- for LE to assume that because they're here, they're legal, and we can't ask anyone for an ID?

The problem statement still remains- 10-15M illegals in the country. Undermines our constitutionally valid system of government re: voting. Illegals gotta go. Unless you disagree with those statements- what's the COA for identifying and removing illegals?

I think that if you are in the United States you are still entitled to due process. The courts agree with me.

I don’t think the burden of proof should be on an individual because they were profiled.

 

[TLDR20]

I want to be very clear. I do not have an ounce of support in my body for these idiots in LA. My position is not in line with any of them. The use of unconstitutional powers by ICE for decades is bothersome to me. It is just at the forefront getting attention now.

I think I have brought up the BP checkpoints in every single discussion of immigration and enforcement ever. I think it is not appropriate for the government to ask me for proof of my citizenship unless I am entering the country.

 

[amlove21]

I want to be very clear. I do not have an ounce of support in my body for these idiots in LA. My position is not in line with any of them. The use of unconstitutional powers by ICE for decades is bothersome to me. It is just at the forefront getting attention now.

I think I have brought up the BP checkpoints in every single discussion of immigration and enforcement ever. I think it is not appropriate for the government to ask me for proof of my citizenship unless I am entering the country.

Yeah that's fair, I get what you were saying.

I'd ask again for the fix. Is ICE allowed to ask who they suspect to be an illegal immigrant to prove their citizenship? Granted, they're going to ask someone, that person won't have their ID on them, they'll detain them, they'll be perfectly legal, they let them go. We all know that happens, and your point on the 4th is a fair one.

All that being said- the problem remains, so what is the actual way forward here? Because one side immediately and repeatedly engages in domestic terror to resist the "use of unconstitutional powers by ICE". And that's exactly what's happening now, and what will happen for the next two weeks, specifically on June 14th, nationwide. The red/green alliance is alive and well, and bad actors are going to seize on this unrest. So it has to stop, and we don't have a time machine.

My fix? Lock everything down, arrest every agitator with whatever force is necessary. Ban masks in public. Re-infoce the local PDs. Charge everyone who incites, elected officials included. Then we could maybe "talk about stuff with guys in non-threatening clothes".

 

[amlove21]

Related but not really- Cali was already hemorrhaging people. What's the bet we see a second wave of people leaving Cali?

 

[TLDR20]

I don’t have an easy to write out answer to a problem as complex as this. I think we have seen in our past that it is not wise to sacrifice the liberties of others for perceived temporary safety. This isn’t about the protestors.

The protestors should be dispersed, violently if necessary. That they are flying Mexican flags while under the banner of our protection pisses me off to no end.

 

[Box]

Many Most Almost ALL of these poor innocent ICE raid victims are criminals.
Criminal that have committed a crime - been arrested - processed - found to be an illegal alien during processing - released by leftist policies - and then - POOF - they disappear just like Kaiser Soze after leaving Agent Kujan's office.

Then they get ratted out and tracked and located and raided and detained and maybe even deported - but the idea that countless US citizens are having their 4th amendment rights shit on by the Orangeman because they "look like illegal aliens" just isn't how this is playing out across the country. When ICE starts doing that - the Leftist Lawfare will be on full display just like it was when the left started to intentionally lie about Border Patrol Agents "horse whipping": innocent people. This is just another bit of strawman induced kabuki theater by the left to spread as much disinformation as they can before the news cycle shifts to Elons next anti-Trump tweet.

Where are all of the news reports about US CITIZENS that have been detained and deported after being arrested for walking while Hispanic? Yet at the end of the day almost EVERYTHING in the news is a little more than nonsequiter about all of the poor oppressed innocent people being unfairly detained. When every activist judge and state prosecutor this side of the Rio Grande can sue the government or place injunctions for OBVIOUS bullshit - the suggestion that I'm to believe they wouldn't be televising the victory lap when ICE does something that really IS illegal?
...fuhgedaboutit

ICE isn't walking down the street, and arresting a guy with a suntan because he's wearing work boots and eating a fucking taco. They aren't patrolling the streets stopping dark skinned folks and demanding papers.
When they - do - fuck them too.
Until then, the best I can muster is a very disinterested 'meh

 

[Cookie_]

How did Catch and Release work for us up until now?

Catch and release was a pretty dumb program. We'd have been better off building a tent city holding facility and funding immigration courts to process people instead.

This CATO write-up is pretty good and hits on how T42 basically lead to a build-up of migrants on the border repeatedly attempting to cross.

Something it touches on is our labor markets, but what I think it misses is how toothless we are to companies caught hiring illegals. ICE can go after these companies, but they almost never do. According to This article they hit their peak with 25 cases one year under Obama.

I'll give some flowers to this admin; They have started to fine businesses. I think its a good start, but I'd like to see more resources go to tackling this/reforming the penalties. People cross illegally because they are incentivized by businesses/corps that'll give them jobs.

 

[ThunderHorse]

Like I said, sitting at a Mexican restaurant, I don’t have my passport or birth certificate. I don’t think 99.9% of Americans keep those things on them.

Since getting my passport card...after the one time not bringing it and treating it like my passport. It stays in my wallet. Which helps since I needed a RealiD [because Arizona]. Highly recommend.

More Americans had their rights violated by Obama in a year than they have in 4.5 years of Trump. Let's just be real about it.

 

[amlove21]

I don’t have an easy to write out answer to a problem as complex as this. I think we have seen in our past that it is not wise to sacrifice the liberties of others for perceived temporary safety. This isn’t about the protestors.

The protestors should be dispersed, violently if necessary. That they are flying Mexican flags while under the banner of our protection pisses me off to no end.

I understand what point you're making here, and I disagree with the extent to which you buttress it.

I agree, any rights taken away are never given back. I agree that sacrificing security for liberty means you deserve neither. I agree that the Heglian Dialectic is a slippery slope to enslavement.

Where I disagree is that you're using those truisms to defend the largest mass migration in history and illegal invasion of our country.

It's not about the protestors... you mean rioters? Fine. I am totally willing to make it only about the people here illegally (who are also agitating the riots, oddly)- for whatever bleeding heart index case you can lob (mother of cancer kids, separating families, ICE asking for ID just because they might 'look illegal')- and they have to go. Full stop. It sucks for those people here illegally that may be otherwise good people, but life is hard. If I was them, I would be super pissed at the Dems for championing wife beating human trafficking MS-13 gang members and making Mr. Maryland Man the face of this issue. If only some calm people in suits could have stopped turning the temp up at every turn, we could have talked about it. The time to talk is now over. We are in "FO".

This is a national security issue that puts Americans at risk. That fact trumps (see what I did there) all other tangential concerns about the possible constitutional rights of people that started their life in America by breaking our laws.

Snip...People cross illegally because they are incentivized by businesses/corps that'll give them jobs.

People cross illegally because America is the single greatest, most free, most tolerant, most benevolent force in the history of the universe. And then they dare to murder our women and children and fly their flag while they burn our cities and condescend about how we "should morally act" when we respond with like force and fervor.

I am over it.

 

[Muppet]

Fucking Bravo, all of you guys, having a proper adult conversation regarding issues that we cannot fix.

Only if Americans stopped being partisan cunts, defending their favorite politicians instead of speaking on matters like proper adults.

It is refreshing to read this, I've learned alot and agree/disagree with all points.

 

[ThunderHorse]

And @amlove21 the Marines be a coming.

Trump to deploy approximately 700 Marines to LA amid protests against immigration raids

 

[Muppet]

And @amlove21 the Marines be a coming.

Trump to deploy approximately 700 Marines to LA amid protests against immigration raids

Taco flavored crayons all around!!!

 

[TLDR20]

@amlove21

Can you point out where I defended “the largest mass migration in history”?

Being against one small point of enforcement because I think that it is illegal, and has been proven so time and again, and goes against the fabric of our nation does not mean that I am pro “mass migration”.

What I have said, and will say again, is that if I was in one of these shitholes, I’d do everything I could to come to America. I don’t for a second believe that even a vast majority of the immigrants in our country are nefarious. I do agree they are here illegally and we should discourage them coming here.

You are painting everyone with any view counter at all to yours with wide brush strokes.

 

[TLDR20]

Since getting my passport card...after the one time not bringing it and treating it like my passport. It stays in my wallet. Which helps since I needed a RealiD [because Arizona]. Highly recommend.

More Americans had their rights violated by Obama in a year than they have in 4.5 years of Trump. Let's just be real about it.

Cool whataboutism. It was gay and retarded then and it is gay and retarded now.

 

[Florida173]

I think that if you are in the United States you are still entitled to due process. The courts agree with me.

I don’t think the burden of proof should be on an individual because they were profiled.

I'm pretty sure the burden of proof for legal residence is exactly on them to prove in immigration matters. These are DOJ immigration judges, not Art III judges. I'm guessing after a violation of Notice To Appear happens, they gave up additional due process.

 

[TLDR20]

I'm pretty sure the burden of proof for legal residence is exactly on them to prove in immigration matters. These are DOJ immigration judges, not Art III judges

So a federal agent can arrest me and detain me until I can prove I am a citizen? With no cause?

 

[Florida173]

So a federal agent can arrest me and detain me until I can prove I am a citizen? With no cause?

Yes, but it's indeed "with cause" if you're in violation of the due process that you were already apart of and neglecting. Do you believe they are just randomly rounding people up? I've only seen them go in and target certain individuals, or worse case get some collateral folks that are released soon after when they prove residency.

 

[TLDR20]

Yes, but it's indeed "with cause" if you're in violation of the due process that you were already apart of and neglecting. Do you believe they are just randomly rounding people up? I've only seen them go in and target certain individuals, or worse case get some collateral folks that are released soon after when they prove residency.

I have seen many examples of them arresting and detaining people who are not the targets of their investigations.

The “worst case” is a severe violation of people’s rights.

 

[Cookie_]

People cross illegally because America is the single greatest, most free, most tolerant, most benevolent force in the history of the universe.

I totally agree those are all reasons as well; I never want to see those reasons for migration change.

But one of the major reasons is economic; if they can get an under the table job working here, that's more reason to not bother pursuing legal means. One of those janitorial companies in the story I linked had a 100% violation rate and knowingly hired illegals. Businesses like that shouldn't get off with a slap on the wrist fine.

 

[Florida173]

I have seen many examples of them arresting and detaining people who are not the targets of their investigations.

The “worst case” is a severe violation of people’s rights.

Do you agree with me that they are arresting the wrong people? They should be arresting every employer that has created this culture of modern day American slavery with maximum sentencing.