NATO, stay or go?

[DA SWO]

I think we should stay in NATO, but need to make changes.
I don't think we need as many troops in Europe as we have now and some sort of reduction needs to happen.

 

[AWP]

I don't think our force levels should change until Europe steps up. If it won't step up, we need to go home. There should be some gates or checkpoints or whatever and if those aren't met then we get on a plane.

How do we get there? Dunno. Europe needs a realistic amount of time to fill the gap, 5 years or whatever, but we can't pull out overnight and we also can't allow them to string us along. Acquisition takes time, training soldiers takes time and they need that, so we can't just leave but we also can't stay while they treat us like rug merchants. "My friend, my friend, I give you good price."

We need to go, but we can't just up and leave like a dad going out for a loaf of bread or gallon of milk...

 

[DA SWO]

I don't think our force levels should change until Europe steps up. If it won't step up, we need to go home. There should be some gates or checkpoints or whatever and if those aren't met then we get on a plane.

How do we get there? Dunno. Europe needs a realistic amount of time to fill the gap, 5 years or whatever, but we can't pull out overnight and we also can't allow them to string us along. Acquisition takes time, training soldiers takes time and they need that, so we can't just leave but we also can't stay while they treat us like rug merchants. "My friend, my friend, I give you good price."

We need to go, but we can't just up and leave like a dad going out for a loaf of bread or gallon of milk...

That's why I put rotational troops as an option.
Marines have rotated guys into Okinawa for decades (since the 1940's) and it seems to work. We rotate units into Poland with no huge issues, why not make all the bases rotational?

One of the big (stated) reasons for our presence was the time necessary to move forces into Europe (REFORGER exercises), but we are better now having done a mini-REFORGER a few years ago when Ukraine/Russia went at it.

Depots with strong security (US, not host nation) similar to the CENTCOM model.

 

[GOTWA]

Membership, just like with anything else, comes with a cost. Fail to pay the fee, your shit gets canceled. If safety is the concern, and you won't priorize your spending to address that concern? Bye Felicia. War with China is inevitable so everyone better get on board.

 

[ArtaPlageJailhouse]

That's why I put rotational troops as an option.
Marines have rotated guys into Okinawa for decades (since the 1940's) and it seems to work. We rotate units into Poland with no huge issues, why not make all the bases rotational?

One of the big (stated) reasons for our presence was the time necessary to move forces into Europe (REFORGER exercises), but we are better now having done a mini-REFORGER a few years ago when Ukraine/Russia went at it.

Depots with strong security (US, not host nation) similar to the CENTCOM model.

I was in Oki just post Vietnam, while I was lucky to get a squared away unit, NCOs were scare that said it was a great place to make your bones.

Individual rotation with one year pumps was extremely tough on unit cohesion. Unit rotation started in 80' w 3 year tours IIRC.

 

[ArtaPlageJailhouse]

I was in Oki just post Vietnam, while I was lucky to get a squared away unit, NCOs were scare that said it was a great place to make your bones.

Individual rotation with one year pumps was extremely tough on unit cohesion. Unit rotation started in 80' w 3 year tours IIRC.

Spelling and grammar disaster....

 

[BloodStripe]

I voted to move to rotational forces. I think that also comes with a reduction in size. But, like @AWP said, it’s not an overnight decision. I do think it’s retarded if we give up High Command though.

 

[Marauder06]

Rotational units, Korea/Poland style, might be the best way to go. I'm not exactly sure what staging large bodies of troops (and families) on the European mainland gets for us in the modern operating environment. Perhaps a single large base in Germany and one in the UK where we base major strategic assets and supply depots, and everything else we flow into theater as needed leave it to the Europeans to sort out their own security.

 

[amlove21]

Rotational units, Korea/Poland style, might be the best way to go. I'm not exactly sure what staging large bodies of troops (and families) on the European mainland gets for us in the modern operating environment. Perhaps a single large base in Germany and one in the UK where we base major strategic assets and supply depots, and everything else we flow into theater as needed leave it to the Europeans to sort out their own security.

Overall, go. I can agree with this detachment/warm basing to keep the unfettered force projection aspect, because @Marauder06 is smarter than me.

But leave NATO. Do it just like we did Afghanistan, in the dark of night without telling our partners.

 

[Cookie_]

I think the suggestion @Marauder06 has is pretty much the best method. Consolidate our footprint in Germany and get us out of places like Kosovo/Italy etc.

The only downside to rotational units is how much strain they put on troops when we aren't properly managing our workloads back home.

I think of The Broken Tracks article whenever I think of increasing rotations.

 

[DA SWO]

I think the suggestion @Marauder06 has is pretty much the best method. Consolidate our footprint in Germany and get us out of places like Kosovo/Italy etc.

The only downside to rotational units is how much strain they put on troops when we aren't properly managing our workloads back home.

I think of The Broken Tracks article whenever I think of increasing rotations.

I was thinking of a 1/3 rotation. Div Hq slice and 1 Bde.
Same with most Flying Wings.
Exceptions are SOF and the Air Refueling Wing in England.

 

[AWP]

We are almost never giving up Ramstein.

Spang would be a great candidate for a rotational mission. Aviano's a coinflip, but Spang's a much better candidate to become a rotational only base. Incirlik, I don't see us giving up that base unless the Turks throw us out.

 

[amlove21]

Aviano sucks because of training. You can live there and support the economy but god forbid you wanna shoot or fly. German bases are a lot better, even than England in recent years.

Edit- pianos don’t suck. Aviano does.

 

[Marauder06]

I think the suggestion @Marauder06 has is pretty much the best method. Consolidate our footprint in Germany and get us out of places like Kosovo/Italy etc.

The only downside to rotational units is how much strain they put on troops when we aren't properly managing our workloads back home.

I think of The Broken Tracks article whenever I think of increasing rotations.

The Broken Tracks article was very interesting. I hadn't read it before. It seems like we never really drew down the OPTEMPO after AFG and IRQ (well, we never really ended things in Iraq). Yes, combat is very different from training. But as far as families go, gone is gone. And stress is still stress, even if it's not the stress of sustained combat.

Ours is a stressful and dangerous profession by its nature. We don't need to add to it by making things harder than they have to be.

 

[Box]

I'd vote to stay - but with a complete restructuring of the treaty.

Reduced force levels?
Fuck that. Permanent military presence around the world is how the US says "don't start a fucking war and we won't open a PX in one of your obscure little towns" A reduced force overseas means an INCREASED strain on the entire logistic system when the time comes - AND IT WILL - to go fuck somebody up. Force levels overseas are how we show the world our dick - and we have a big dick - we should be proud of it - we just need to stop pulling our dick out at cocktail parties. Current troop levels around the world are how "poor" Americans get to travel the world and visit places they NEVER be able to afford as the family of an E3 stationed in Fort Reilly Kansas. Is an E5 with three kids stationed in Fort Irwin ever going to get a chance to take his kids to Euro-Disney?
No.
No he is not.
Projecting American power around the globe by having smiling American faces standing around their deadly arsenal of "don't fuck with us" as they live abroad is how we do business. Sure, it probably costs a few more bucks than pulling everything back to the continental US but I'd wager that stranding a bunch more families into places like Fort Irwin, Ft Reilly, Ft Leonard-Wood, or Ft Leavenworth wouldn't be the overall saving when it results in young miserable troops offing themselves because their life in the middle of nowhere sucks.

Transitioning to rotational units without family?
Wow.
Nope - not me. No way no how. If there is one thing that I learned without any doubt over 2 decades of "rotational combat" in places like Iraq and Afghanistan - is that America's senior leaders fucking suck at managing such shenanigans.
The cost of managing such a shit show would be levels above monumental. Force generation models are already a fucking nightmare. The guard cycle don't match the USAF doesn't match the Army etc etc etc...
That's only complicated by the "type" of units being rotated. Its pretty easy to rotate the 82d in...
"rig up mother fuckers, we're jumping in - we'll figure everything else out when we get on the ground"
Try doing that with a Stryker Brigade - or a unit with an Airborne tab that cant really succeed at their mission without a shit ton of helicopters. Then compound the rotational problem with the fact that armor units aren't really "rapid deployment" capable and need a LOT of logistical planning to rotate them in and out of theater. Then of course there is the vulnerability to our assets. Every time you fill a bunch of boats with our best battle tanks to float them across the big pond - you make them helpless until they are back on solid ground. Tanks are heavy and those mother fuckers will sink straight to the bottom of the ocean if given the chance. Then of course there is the OPTEMPO that comes with being a rotational unit. Our government is incapable of managing rotational units without burning out the force.
ABSOLUTELY.INCAPABLE.
The global combatant commanders will immediately ask for more and more and more and more and more - just like they do now. Service Component Commanders will never say no - the same way that they haven't said no for most of the last 20+ years - because they aren't the ones that suffer from back to back to back deployments. After all - the boss can always just travel to a "conference" or some such nonsense to break up the monotony.
Then they give motivational speeches about "Soldiers first - mission always" or some other such empty nonsense as they crush dudes for DUI's or failed drug tests after the fact - instead of finding out "why" these formerly AWESOME Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, and Airmen are suddenly acting like shit bags...
...but they will, in fact, fact give another speech about how we should all "see the warning signs" in our battle buddies because of rising suicide rates - after these same troops that just got labeled as shit bags for demonstrating those warning signs self selected and hit the "off switch"


OR - we could call our allies into a room and close the door...
"Look mother fuckers - enough is enough"
We are tired of sending our people over here to protect you only for you to complain that our troops training at night - TO PROTECT YOU - is making too much noise and upsetting some of your citizens.
We are tired of spending our money - TO PROTECT YOU - only for you to fuck us over when it comes time to pay the check.
We are tired of burying our war dead - AFTER THEY DIED PROTECTING YOU - only for you to talk shit about us on the global stage.
Here's the deal - unfuck yourself. We aren't making threats - this isn't a "if you don't want us here just tell us" situation because that's not the game we are playing. We've decided - we like it here and we aren't leaving.
EVER.
We are the Alpha male in this wolf pack and we are about to throw a fucking temper tantrum like a spoiled American kid in a Toys-R-Us if you don't get your shit straight.
Thanks for your time and understanding on this matter - and lets get this shit right so we can all live in peace.
Now go get me a Cafe Latte...
...twist of lemon
...sweet & low
...and I may want a bagel to go with it




Of course - thats just my two cents

 

[BlackSmokeRisinG]

The answer is already in. According to this Stars and Stripes article, it costs $70m/year MORE, to deploy a rotational Armor BGD for 9 months than a permanent base in theater.

I vote for downsizing our overall role in Europe until...well....they pay us or help more. Lets not forget who won both WWs. (hint it wasn't the Brits or the Germans) I say we cut costs all around and let the Europeans defend Europe.


Dropping European rotations in favor of permanent basing would save Army millions, report finds

I would hope for more bases in Poland, just for the chance to get some Polish trim, but that's just me.

 

[DA SWO]

The answer is already in. According to this Stars and Stripes article, it costs $70m/year MORE, to deploy a rotational Armor BGD for 9 months than a permanent base in theater.

I vote for downsizing our overall role in Europe until...well....they pay us or help more. Lets not forget who won both WWs. (hint it wasn't the Brits or the Germans) I say we cut costs all around and let the Europeans defend Europe.


Dropping European rotations in favor of permanent basing would save Army millions, report finds

I would hope for more bases in Poland, just for the chance to get some Polish trim, but that's just me.

Why?
Do we bring tanks from the US? or fall in on assets already there?
Transporting tanks is expensive, falling in on tanks in theater is less expensive.

 

[Blizzard]

I'd vote to stay - but with a complete restructuring of the treaty.

Reduced force levels?
Fuck that. Permanent military presence around the world is how the US says "don't start a fucking war and we won't open a PX in one of your obscure little towns" A reduced force overseas means an INCREASED strain on the entire logistic system when the time comes - AND IT WILL - to go fuck somebody up. Force levels overseas are how we show the world our dick - and we have a big dick - we should be proud of it - we just need to stop pulling our dick out at cocktail parties. Current troop levels around the world are how "poor" Americans get to travel the world and visit places they NEVER be able to afford as the family of an E3 stationed in Fort Reilly Kansas. Is an E5 with three kids stationed in Fort Irwin ever going to get a chance to take his kids to Euro-Disney?
No.
No he is not.
Projecting American power around the globe by having smiling American faces standing around their deadly arsenal of "don't fuck with us" as they live abroad is how we do business. Sure, it probably costs a few more bucks than pulling everything back to the continental US but I'd wager that stranding a bunch more families into places like Fort Irwin, Ft Reilly, Ft Leonard-Wood, or Ft Leavenworth wouldn't be the overall saving when it results in young miserable troops offing themselves because their life in the middle of nowhere sucks.

Transitioning to rotational units without family?
Wow.
Nope - not me. No way no how. If there is one thing that I learned without any doubt over 2 decades of "rotational combat" in places like Iraq and Afghanistan - is that America's senior leaders fucking suck at managing such shenanigans.
The cost of managing such a shit show would be levels above monumental. Force generation models are already a fucking nightmare. The guard cycle don't match the USAF doesn't match the Army etc etc etc...
That's only complicated by the "type" of units being rotated. Its pretty easy to rotate the 82d in...
"rig up mother fuckers, we're jumping in - we'll figure everything else out when we get on the ground"
Try doing that with a Stryker Brigade - or a unit with an Airborne tab that cant really succeed at their mission without a shit ton of helicopters. Then compound the rotational problem with the fact that armor units aren't really "rapid deployment" capable and need a LOT of logistical planning to rotate them in and out of theater. Then of course there is the vulnerability to our assets. Every time you fill a bunch of boats with our best battle tanks to float them across the big pond - you make them helpless until they are back on solid ground. Tanks are heavy and those mother fuckers will sink straight to the bottom of the ocean if given the chance. Then of course there is the OPTEMPO that comes with being a rotational unit. Our government is incapable of managing rotational units without burning out the force.
ABSOLUTELY.INCAPABLE.
The global combatant commanders will immediately ask for more and more and more and more and more - just like they do now. Service Component Commanders will never say no - the same way that they haven't said no for most of the last 20+ years - because they aren't the ones that suffer from back to back to back deployments. After all - the boss can always just travel to a "conference" or some such nonsense to break up the monotony.
Then they give motivational speeches about "Soldiers first - mission always" or some other such empty nonsense as they crush dudes for DUI's or failed drug tests after the fact - instead of finding out "why" these formerly AWESOME Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, and Airmen are suddenly acting like shit bags...
...but they will, in fact, fact give another speech about how we should all "see the warning signs" in our battle buddies because of rising suicide rates - after these same troops that just got labeled as shit bags for demonstrating those warning signs self selected and hit the "off switch"


OR - we could call our allies into a room and close the door...
"Look mother fuckers - enough is enough"
We are tired of sending our people over here to protect you only for you to complain that our troops training at night - TO PROTECT YOU - is making too much noise and upsetting some of your citizens.
We are tired of spending our money - TO PROTECT YOU - only for you to fuck us over when it comes time to pay the check.
We are tired of burying our war dead - AFTER THEY DIED PROTECTING YOU - only for you to talk shit about us on the global stage.
Here's the deal - unfuck yourself. We aren't making threats - this isn't a "if you don't want us here just tell us" situation because that's not the game we are playing. We've decided - we like it here and we aren't leaving.
EVER.
We are the Alpha male in this wolf pack and we are about to throw a fucking temper tantrum like a spoiled American kid in a Toys-R-Us if you don't get your shit straight.
Thanks for your time and understanding on this matter - and lets get this shit right so we can all live in peace.
Now go get me a Cafe Latte...
...twist of lemon
...sweet & low
...and I may want a bagel to go with it




Of course - thats just my two cents

Generally concur with this.

Force projection and logistics are strongly weighted and compelling reasons to maintain the relationship; they're core competencies and differentiaters. No one else can do what we can; just look at Russia's debacle into Ukraine.

Adjustments are needed and members need to pull their weight, but we shouldn't lose sight of some of the significant advantages it brings to us as well.

 

[BlackSmokeRisinG]

Why?
Do we bring tanks from the US? or fall in on assets already there?
Transporting tanks is expensive, falling in on tanks in theater is less expensive.

Tanks are difficult, the Army likes to have one tank crew assigned to one tank. However, in theater Humvees and MRAPs stayed and get turned over to the new unit. Tanks, Brads, and Strykers are more complicated but some stayed in Iraq and it worked out fine.

We could put depots in Europe and Korea. Then, send troops when needed if three things happen: crewmen unpaired from vehicles get enough training time with the same equipment every year, service and maintenance are covered year round at the depot, and there is a sufficient security force to protect the thousands of pieces of armor.

Since the only 2 real possibilities for an armor war are Europe and Korea (China), there's no reason not to have them there in the requisite numbers.

 

[BloodStripe]

Who maintains the stuff in storage in Norway? Or are they basically all drained of fluids and just sit in the cave?