Our broken awards system

[ThunderHorse]

Military Athlete's facebooky also posted this yesterday, it was an interesting read: It’s Hard to Tell War Heroes From Paper-Pushers When Everybody Gets So Many Dumb Ribbons

I will point out that before the Civil War officers didn't get medals as they were for enlistedmen. Officers received Brevet promotions that would be confirmed by Congress.

Dusting off an old thread because I saw an email from Mountain Tactical Institute asking if there is a Silver Star bias against junior enlisted troops. They include some data collected from their own research, but the point of the article is more to get the opinions of servicemembers. They chose the Silver Star since it is a combat valor only award, not one that can be awarded for meritorious service. I look forward to seeing the opinions others post. I personally think there is a bias against junior enlisted for a lot of awards, if not all of them.

Is There a Silver Star Award Bias Against Junior Enlisted? - Mountain Tactical Institute

In my experience as an S1 and the S1 prior to me, Officer Awards never went through the CSMs desk, whereas all enlisted awards did and he quite often recommended to the SCO downgrading or called the Troop 1SG. Granted none of these were for valor, but it may have something to do with the system being all fuckered up.

 

[Etype]

Military Athlete's facebooky also posted this yesterday, it was an interesting read: It’s Hard to Tell War Heroes From Paper-Pushers When Everybody Gets So Many Dumb Ribbons

I will point out that before the Civil War officers didn't get medals as they were for enlistedmen. Officers received Brevet promotions that would be confirmed by Congress.

The picture of General Eisenhower next to Patraeus was a good touch.

Good paragraph-

The ribbons have spread so widely that it has become difficult to differentiate heroes from bedecked bureaucrats, assignment-junkies and dedicated self-improvement types — which, I suppose, is partly the point.

The status quo is to receive a ribbon when you leave assignments if you do a good job. As a soldier, I consider doing a good job to be my job. So basically, folks who hop around to staff jobs and special assignments get a lot of ribbons for doing their job.

 

[CDG]

I liked the comparison drawn between a first term Airman, and the Generals. That definitely puts it in sharp perspective. The USAF, for example, awards a ribbon for completing Basic Military Training. Why does that need to be a ribbon? To make a ribbon rack one ribbon larger? The uniform is your award for completing Basic. :wall::wall:

 

[Devildoc]

Military Athlete's facebooky also posted this yesterday, it was an interesting read: It’s Hard to Tell War Heroes From Paper-Pushers When Everybody Gets So Many Dumb Ribbons

That was a really interesting read. Probably the best thing I will have read today. I will say, rising through the Navy's enlisted and officer ranks, the awards system is a relative joke: it's like all the honors, weighted, and AP classes to pad the high school GPA: after a while, when everyone has a 3.8+ GPA, it loses it's specialness.

When the Navy pushed the award authority from the NAM to the unit level, all of a sudden, everyone had one, seemingly for just showing up. Because it added points for promotions, which in turn made the CO/OIC look good. And what used to get you a NAM, now garnered a Navy Comm. Fast forward to combat, a Marine is getting engaged in combat and may still not get a CAR; a sailor goes outside the wire and gets a Navy Comm with a Combat V.

 

[Grunt]

Sadly enough, once those ribbons and awards began being handed out so abundantly, they began losing their importance and honor.

Certainly, I am not dis honoring those that truly earned them, but, many have simply been handed out due to the "everyone gets a trophy" mentality that has permeated our military.

The reality is...everyone does not have the RIGHT to have a trophy, although, everyone does the the right to EARN one honestly.

 

[CDG]

When the Navy pushed the award authority from the NAM to the unit level, all of a sudden, everyone had one, seemingly for just showing up. Because it added points for promotions, which in turn made the CO/OIC look good. And what used to get you a NAM, now garnered a Navy Comm. Fast forward to combat, a Marine is getting engaged in combat and may still not get a CAR; a sailor goes outside the wire and gets a Navy Comm with a Combat V.

I might have mentioned this anecdote earlier in this thread, but it bears repeating. When we got back from my first cruise, we had a command wide awards ceremony. I thought all of the awards were unwarranted, but the one that stood out the most was the NAM awarded for keeping the vending machine stocked for 6 months.

 

[Devildoc]

I might have mentioned this anecdote earlier in this thread, but it bears repeating. When we got back from my first cruise, we had a command wide awards ceremony. I thought all of the awards were unwarranted, but the one that stood out the most was the NAM awarded for keeping the vending machine stocked for 6 months.

I had three NAMs. I am embarrassed to say what they were for. Let's just say it makes the vending machine award look good. When I went through boot, they didn't even give out the National Defense Medal. My first medal? The Military Outstanding Volunteer Service Medal. No shit.

 

[yarles87]

Dusting off an old thread because I saw an email from Mountain Tactical Institute asking if there is a Silver Star bias against junior enlisted troops. They include some data collected from their own research, but the point of the article is more to get the opinions of servicemembers. They chose the Silver Star since it is a combat valor only award, not one that can be awarded for meritorious service. I look forward to seeing the opinions others post. I personally think there is a bias against junior enlisted for a lot of awards, if not all of them.

Is There a Silver Star Award Bias Against Junior Enlisted? - Mountain Tactical Institute

(Full disclosure: I work for MTI/Military Athlete and wrote that article, so thanks for the share)

Here are some other interesting data points we collected while researching the article.

The ratio of Bronze Star w/ "V" to to Bronze Star for achievement in Vietnam - 1:3

The ratio of Bronze Star w/ "V" to to Bronze Star for achievement in Iraq - 1:42

That is a incredible number. Combat intensity and frequency might explain that, but I'm not sure. To be clear, far more Bronze Stars were awarded in Vietnam. 170,626 Bronze Star "V", and 549,342 Bronze Star for Achievement.

What does that mean? It's certainly open to interpretation as it's only a quick snapshot. Anyhoo, glad it's generating some discussion.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

(Full disclosure: I work for MTI/Military Athlete and wrote that article, so thanks for the share)

Here are some other interesting data points we collected while researching the article.

The ratio of Bronze Star w/ "V" to to Bronze Star for achievement in Vietnam - 1:3

The ratio of Bronze Star w/ "V" to to Bronze Star for achievement in Iraq - 1:42

That is a incredible number. Combat intensity and frequency might explain that, but I'm not sure. To be clear, far more Bronze Stars were awarded in Vietnam. 170,626 Bronze Star "V", and 549,342 Bronze Star for Achievement.

What does that mean? It's certainly open to interpretation as it's only a quick snapshot. Anyhoo, glad it's generating some discussion.

That's pretty telling, and confirms my experience and thoughts. The only guys I saw getting BSM/V were KIA, or did some shit deserving of a much-much higher award. They handed BSM's out like candy to E7 and up, for being an E7 and up.

 

[Etype]

The USAF, for example, awards a ribbon for completing Basic Military Training. Why does that need to be a ribbon? To make a ribbon rack one ribbon larger? The uniform is your award for completing Basic. :wall::wall:

We have the Army Service Ribbon. I'm obviously serving the Army if I'm wearing the uniform.

Overseas Ribbon- I also have overseas bars and campaign ribbons- redundant.

NCO Professional Development Ribbon- You can guess my level of NCO schooling based on my rank.

Good Conduct Medal- I shouldn't get a medal for not violating the UCMJ.

 

[Red Flag 1]

I

 

[DA SWO]

We have the Army Service Ribbon. I'm obviously serving the Army if I'm wearing the uniform.

Overseas Ribbon- I also have overseas bars and campaign ribbons- redundant.

NCO Professional Development Ribbon- You can guess my level of NCO schooling based on my rank.

Good Conduct Medal- I shouldn't get a medal for not violating the UCMJ.

Agree on all except the GCM.
There once was a time where Art 15's were not career killers (the AF has a MOH recipient with 2 (3?) on his record), so a GCM wasn't automatic. Going downtown and getting into a fight was considered semi-normal, so the Art 15, or LOR were common.
I'd rather see fewer GCM's and better Soldiers being allowed to stay in myself.

 

[Teufel]

Dusting off an old thread because I saw an email from Mountain Tactical Institute asking if there is a Silver Star bias against junior enlisted troops. They include some data collected from their own research, but the point of the article is more to get the opinions of servicemembers. They chose the Silver Star since it is a combat valor only award, not one that can be awarded for meritorious service. I look forward to seeing the opinions others post. I personally think there is a bias against junior enlisted for a lot of awards, if not all of them.

Is There a Silver Star Award Bias Against Junior Enlisted? - Mountain Tactical Institute

The article brings up some interesting points but I believe it is too broad to be truly useful. First of all, the different services approach valor awards very differently. The Army, for example, gave a bunch of Brigade and Battalion commanders Silver Stars during OIF and OEF. I would be interested to see how many enlisted men were awarded for their bravery in the associated actions. LtCols and Cols are rarely at the tip of the spear and do not often have opportunities to display extraordinary courage. I would be interested to see how the awards break down per service with regard to rank and total numbers. I know the Marine Corps has primarily awarded the Silver Star to junior enlisted, platoon sergeants and platoon commanders. Most of these recipients were wounded in the course of their heroics.

 

[yarles87]

PFC - 1
LCpl - 19
Cpl - 24
Sgt - 27
SSgt - 16
GySgt - 10
MSgt - 2

CWO - 2
2ndLT - 7
1stLT - 8
Captain - 8
Maj - 4
LtCol - 1
Col and up - 0

Marine Corps - Silver Star

 

[Teufel]

PFC - 1
LCpl - 19
Cpl - 24
Sgt - 27
SSgt - 16
GySgt - 10
MSgt - 2

CWO - 2
2ndLT - 7
1stLT - 8
Captain - 8
Maj - 4
LtCol - 1
Col and up - 0

Marine Corps - Silver Star

I hate to do math in public but that's roughly 100 enlisted to 30 officers, 70 of which were awarded to E5 and below. That looks like a pretty good ratio to me.

The vast majority of the officers were platoon commanders. There are a few company commanders in there as well. There is one battalion commander, LtCol Lopez, who got caught in a huge ambush in Ramadi while conducting a battlefield circulation with his civil affairs detachment. I remember hearing about it. He was shot multiple times but refused medevac for 48 until the fire fight ended with 120 enemy KIA. I don't think senior officers should be given valor awards just for being in command of large (battalion and brigade) combat formations in trying circumstances even though this was very common in previous wars.

How does that stack against the other services?

 

[yarles87]

USMC, as expected, is seems to be more conservative IRT to the Silver Star when compared to the Army. I did not break down Navy and Air Force stats, as I think the SOF factor for those services would heavily sway it towards E6+. The same might be possible the Army, but I'm not sure.

Army Breakdown

Private/PFC - 27
Specialist - 64
Corporal - 13
Sgt - 83
SSgt - 146
SFC - 120
Master Sgt - 45
1st Sgt - 10
Sgt Maj - 8

CWO (all ranks) - 33
2ndLT - 4
1stLT - 28
Captain - 76
Major - 8
LtCol - 22
Col - 6
Brig Gen - 1
Maj Gen - 1

 

[Teufel]

The Air Force issued several pilots Silver Stars for conducting air strikes within the range of enemy weapons.

I wonder what acts of personal heroism those six colonels and two generals did to rate the award.

 

[CDG]

The Air Force issued several pilots Silver Stars for conducting air strikes within the range of enemy weapons.

I wonder what acts of personal heroism those six colonels and two generals did to rate the award.

I tried looking up citations, but couldn't find any in a brief search. What I did find was that the Major General, Bufford Blount, was the General who led the Thunder Run to Baghdad in 2003. He was already a MG at the time, and I think it's fairly logical to assume that's what his SS was for. I will keep digging and try to flesh it out more.

 

[Teufel]

I'm sure everyone can tell that I'm sour on the whole award system. It's been broken for a long time and I don't think it will be fixed anytime soon. Hopefully some guys can get their awards adjusted in the future like we have seen happen recently with Vietnam veterans.

I have two major issues with the current award system:

1. There are vastly different standards between the different services. This needs to be addressed. A friend of mine was a squad leader during the Battle of Fallujah. An insurgent threw a grenade into a room he was in. One of his Marines tried to jump on it but John reached down, grabbed it from him and threw it out the room. Or tried to anyway. The grenade went off as it left his hand and sprayed his face and arm with shrapnel. MSgt Petry received the Medal of Honor for doing something similar. John was awarded the Bronze Star with V. I'm not saying that John deserves the Medal of Honor or that MSgt Petry does not. There is a big jump between MOH and BV though and I personally believe that John should be wearing a Navy Cross or at least a Silver Star on his chest. I have countless other examples.

2. The standards for the major valor awards should be the same for officers and enlisted. A General Officer better be lopping off heads with an E-tool if he is nominated for a Silver Star or above. I do believe that officers and SNCOs make a disproportionate amount of impact on the battlefield. Good leaders lead from the front and most award citations reflect this. Take Brian Chontosh for example. He was a CAAT platoon commander during the invasion of Iraq. Then 1st Lt Chontosh told his driver to crash into the enemy trench during an ambush and proceeded to kill 20 insurgents by himself. That's pretty legit. I'm don't think that senior officers should receive Silver Stars just because their units took heavy contact over a deployment though. Disparate standards cheapen awards. I doubt that Major General Blount demonstrated the same level of valor as SFC Cashe did pulling six soldiers out of a burning Bradley under fire.

 

[Totentanz]

@yarles87 - just for the sake of clarity, are the ranks listed according to time of the action (vs when the award was conferred vs highest rank attained)?