See the link below. SF has a lot of folks, I'm wondering how easy it will be to keep everyone proficient?
http://www.army.mil/article/88636/
http://www.army.mil/article/88636/
Q-Course now to include MFF
- Thread starter goon175
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Wow, great incentive for new prospects
Depends on what you mean by proficient and current. But I get what you're trying to say. My answer speaking as a MFF 18Z is that it's very difficult to maintain without increasing the number of MFF JM and MFF JM ATIC slots. Without those two critical skill sets, proficiency is dead in the waters.
Thats great news for the SF community. Im curious how the MFF school is going to adapt to the increased workload. i.e. instructors, number of classes a year as well as continuing to support training other services. Just my two cents but i could see the AF standing up its own MFF school now just like we did with the combat dive course.
I wasn't even so much getting at number of JM's, just the logistics of it all. Getting the aircraft, maintaining that amount of 'chutes on top of the SL ones, fitting both SL and MFF jumps into the training schedule, etc. I know that where there is a will, there is a way, so I guess we will see where this goes. As some said above, it will definately be another thing to boost recruitment at the bare minimum.
the idiots wanting to make this happen are stupider than brand new privates....... you nailed it with "what about the logistics" part........ and the cost of having enough FF chutes, o2 bottles, yadayadayada........ and as 18C4V said.... JM, ATIC slots, proficiency and currency?
Yeah, cool idea...... will it actually happen with the impending socialist demilitarization, errr, budget cuts....... NO.
Yeah, cool idea...... will it actually happen with the impending socialist demilitarization, errr, budget cuts....... NO.
I disagree with the current plan and fielding. Good idea, but no plan to implement it fair and equitiable AND able to sustain the current MFF Teams without taking resources away. Each bn has 36 rigs, 36 O2 masks, 36 02 bottles, 36 PDB's, 36 altimeters, pretty much sets of 36, and that's provided that all the stuff is up and working. If they get more equipment, the bn riggers will need to increase the number of riggers to maintain the equipment and to help support the more frequent slick MFF jumps that everyone will want to do (provided that MFF JM's are available).
What I see happening is guys will want to strap hang with my ODA on the very very few times we just do slick jumps or pull me and my other MFF JM from doing team stuff to do MFF JM duties.
I've seen the current fielding plan and it looks pretty ambitious just to send guys though. Maintaining that skill set was not even brought up.
SWC wants to do something smart? send everyone to SFARTAETC. I remember talking to old timers who say that SOT the precursor to SFARTAETC that guys could go to SOT regardless of upcoming assignements to a CIF. I remember when SERE was not part of the pipeline and now it is and there are still guys (E-7's, E-8's and E-9's) who I personally know who still haven't gone, but want to go but can't get s slot.
But when it's all said and done. IGM!!!!
What I see happening is guys will want to strap hang with my ODA on the very very few times we just do slick jumps or pull me and my other MFF JM from doing team stuff to do MFF JM duties.
I've seen the current fielding plan and it looks pretty ambitious just to send guys though. Maintaining that skill set was not even brought up.
SWC wants to do something smart? send everyone to SFARTAETC. I remember talking to old timers who say that SOT the precursor to SFARTAETC that guys could go to SOT regardless of upcoming assignements to a CIF. I remember when SERE was not part of the pipeline and now it is and there are still guys (E-7's, E-8's and E-9's) who I personally know who still haven't gone, but want to go but can't get s slot.
But when it's all said and done. IGM!!!!
I've seen the current fielding plan and it looks pretty ambitious just to send guys though. Maintaining that skill set was not even brought up.
SWC wants to do something smart? send everyone to SFARTAETC. I remember talking to old timers who say that SOT the precursor to SFARTAETC that guys could go to SOT regardless of upcoming assignements to a CIF. I remember when SERE was not part of the pipeline and now it is and there are still guys (E-7's, E-8's and E-9's) who I personally know who still haven't gone, but want to go but can't get s slot.
But when it's all said and done. IGM!!!!
And as a Guard guy, imagine trying to keep every ODA/ 18 Series in a BN and Group HHC current, proficiency is another can of worms altogether. I also wonder if they've considered the small number of, but huge impact to the mission, increase in riggers who will need to go to the course. One plus at least is that will provide enough JM's to the BSC/ HHD types to stay current without taking away from the ODA's. Riggers will either have to more or less double in size or at least add 2-3 and make every single one of them MFF qualified...which numbers-wise would be like putting another ODA through the school. Then you'll have the added "butt hurt" of riggers going to school BEFORE the ODA's have a shot, because they (Teams) will need them (riggers) to support their MFF ops.
This is an expensive proposition just from the gear necessary, much less airframes. I wonder if everyone's thought this through?
No, but the Army will then want to send everybody through SFUWO too.... because the Navy does, and PJs do........ It's a specialized infil method, spend the $$$ on the overall mission capabilities of SF, not the friggin bling... once you are on the ground in country, you're walking or in a friggin uparmored vehicle anymore anyway, more language training and extra-mission training would be a better force multiplier and bang for the buck.
MOO, YMMV.
Color me ignorant because I really don't know the answer... Why is the Army looking at doing this? Is there a strategic or tactical capabilty that is missing?
If this is the only reason...
If this is the only reason...
Freefalling,
In order to do rigger check's on the MC-4's, riggers have to be MFF Qualfiied, that changed happened last year. We still have riggers who still need to go to MFF PC in order to meet that requirement.
In order to do rigger check's on the MC-4's, riggers have to be MFF Qualfiied, that changed happened last year. We still have riggers who still need to go to MFF PC in order to meet that requirement.
I have the feeling we'll experiencing a disconnect somewhere, my apologies if I wasn't clear earlier.
We had two W8 slots for the riggers when I was in a bazillion years ago to pack and handle the MFF rigs and that's what I'm basing my comments on. Unless the teams are packing their own mains now, the riggers did everything on them back then, hence my comments. To support a gain of...what, 120-ish FF rigs per BN, you'll need to send more riggers to the school. Plus with the increase on MFF ops, you'll need more MFF qualified riggers on hand for those jumps.
I'm obviously pro-MFF and think this would be great if it could be pulled off. I've long thought that MFF was underutilized in the GWOT, particularly over here. Putting every 18 series through MFF (chamber rides, medical including those who need eye surgery to pass the flight physical, training) on top of all of the a/c and equipment needed to support this is huge. We may have the money to buy the car, but can we afford the gas to keep it running?
No sweat, lets see if I can explain more in depth with the rigger issues. During MFF Recerts or sustainments such as Archangel, the guys pack their own rigs under the supervision of riggers (who are MFF qualified) with the book ratio of 1/4 which is one rigger to four jumpers or 3 riggers per a 12 man team. Each guy will jump and pack about 30 times. Can you do it with less and has it been done? Sure, but obviously that's a risk assessment on the CMR that the Primary MFF JM and Abn Commander have to explain if something goes wrong, especially if a cut away occurs and a guy gets hurt.
During a non MFF recert, we'll jump 2 or 3 rigs per man, and avoid the issue of repacking our own chutes due to blade time restraints and usually we'll have two riggers on hand with one of them being MFF (trying to chase jumps for thier MFF JM).
Hope this is a little more clearer.
Yup...All you have to do afterwards is take the A license test, do the check dive, and become a member of USPA. Our team tradition is that we'll try to jump with the guy making his check dive. Last time, we had 5 guys jumping first and then our jr medic jumping out to do his check dive for his A license. Almost all of my guys either have A or B licenses.
NSW is a lot smaller than SF, and you don't have to "share" your jump school, so I imagine it is less of a logistics issue for you guys. I do like how you guys combined SL and MFF though. That makes a lot of sense to me, and is a direction I wish USASOC would move towards.
Really, my main issue with this is that I don't think there is a "NEED" out there for every single guy in SF to be MFF qualified. Honestly, NSW could probably get by with designated MFF platoons just fine. Their are just not enough instances that come up where that will be the primary means of infil, and when they do come up, I'm sure their is a MFF team available from one of the groups. Do I think it would be cool as shit if every platoon in the 75th was MFF? Hell yeah. But is there a need for anyone outside of the recce/STP guys? Nope. As some said above, I would rather see the time/money used on more mission essential stuff. Like getting every single guy NREMT-I qual'd.
HALO99
Verified SOF
This means an increase of MFF jump support elements. A very critical part of MFF. Good skill sets and experience for these additional "support elements" must be established first before sending more batches of people to MFF school. Just my opinion, based on a mistake we made before. Paid for it the hard way.
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