You will not believe this- but nothing happened! It's almost like, because of everyone having a 4g video camera in their pocket at all times, that miracles and plagues and supernatural occurrences have completely dropped off. It's almost like... never-mind.
I think a lot of the conversation here has gone the way that many of these do; the evolution of the discussion has sort of led away from the initial question to be answered.
"Do you need faith in a higher power to act morally and with ethics?"
@Devildoc I outright reject your claim that atheist or non-faith based people are more likely to act immorally. Not only do I reject that claim on it's face, I would challenge you to find me more examples of non-faith based people acting on that "belief" than I could find faith based people acting solely ON their motivation of belief (allah told me to be a suicide bomber; god told me to bomb an abortion clinic). The crimes purported in the name of a god, any god, FAR outnumber any actions of individuals in the name of "I don't believe in a god". That's just the starter for religion (of any type) vs. morality.
@Box , "I don't believe you" isn't a faith. Science isn't a religion. If you don't "believe" science, don't go to the hospital, trash your phone and get off the internet. Sorry, it's part and parcel. You don't get to dismiss the single reason why America is the leading superpower in the world, and that's science and technological advancement. I've heard the argument, and this isn't a personal shot at you- but the argument is fucking trash.
So when you say, "Each side requires faith and each side practices their own form of religion", I feel that is a wild misunderstanding of all sides of the conversation. To further extrapolate the opposing side's philosophical understanding of good and evil or right or wrong solely off your misunderstanding- that is at best intellectually dishonest.
@DozerB , you're falling in to the same trap. To what standard, indeed. Don't you worry about allah's judgment on your eating swine? Don't you just lay at night, awake, worried about his judgment? To what standard are you living your life? (Pause for dramatic effect). I have a feeling you don't worry about allah's wrath because you don't feel that's a logical reason to worry. Now, what if I told you, that there are a whole group of people that feel the SAME way about your god (and cheating on your wife or whatever) that you feel about allah? How does that make you feel? By your own standard, if allah was right, and you were wrong, wouldn't you be the wrong one?
Here is the bottom line-
Anyone claiming an objective ("true") morality on the behalf of a god must first prove their god. "Your" morality isn't "everyone's" morality. Muslims think it's moral to have women covered and beaten for offenses. The Aztec's sacrificed virgins and ripped hearts out of their enemies on a pyramid for good weather. Surprise- they were as faith-based as they come.
Regardless of what "values and ethics" may be prevalent in the region (America has judeo-christian morals, middle east countries have other moral sets), the non-faith communities in those regions don't act in accordance with those values sets;
they're just moral people. It would be far more logical to believe that all humans have have an inherent compass; an inherent object morality that guides them regardless of race, religion or upbringing than it would be to assume that religion brought that morality to the region and those that live there without the dominating religion just adopted their moral edicts cause that was the ONE thing they got right. It would be much more reasonable to think that religion was imposed as a majority opinion with the underpinnings of a morality that was already apparent.
Why?
Because despite mutually exclusive, violent, and wildly varying standards between religions of "what is right or moral", humans find a way to establish a pretty clear and present line across all humanity for what is acceptable, and that defies those pesky rules each religion possesses while proclaiming they're the "right one". When is it ok to kill? Keep slaves? Oppress women? Commit genocide to tribes not your own? Well, that's where real wiggle room lies. Do as you need, with the blessing of your god.
For me, without faith, the only person I can justify things to is myself. I can tell the difference between right and wrong. I don't need a book, and I certainly don't need one that advocates and outlines slavery (all three books) or rape and torture of enemies (all three books) or dietary restrictions (all three books) or... That's enough.