Removing the Confederate Flag

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Dienekes

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I didn't think it was appropriate to bring this up in the Charleston shooting thread, but the shooter's relation to the flag has brought a lot of controversy.

For me, I think that no flag should be flown on federal/state property other than the Stars and Stripes and state flags, except for historical and memorial monuments. However, this incrementalism happened much quicker than usual, and there is now talk of bringing down certain Civil War monuments such as Robert E. Lee statues and the like by painting "Black Lives Matter" on them.

It is absolutely ridiculous to even think of bringing down these historical monuments, and this whole slogan painting movement on them sheds even more light on the (mis)education in history prevalent in schools and more specifically the Civil War. Removing memorials of history does not change the facts of what happened nor do the memorials support anything other than the lives given for a cause and the historical significance of what took place. I also am sorely disappointed in the PR moves that resulted in the removal of the Confederate Flag from large retail stores. I mean my high school's mascot is the rebels and the flag is the Confederate Flag so I grew up around it a lot, and it probably pisses me off more than others.

Thoughts on this?
 
My dad and I have completed approximately 80% of my family tree. I'm aware of 8 ancestors who fought for the CSA, one of which who was a slave owner (three, according to an 1860 Slave Register). As a history guy in that environment I was raised on the "Heritage" angle and "Lost Cause" mythology.

I'm neither proud of nor embarrassed by the flag. I think if a state wants to fly it on state soil or make it a part of the state flag, more power to them. The people will decide. I'm acutely aware that my ancestors were traitors and paid a price for that, but so were the Founding Fathers. The difference is the FF were a part of the winning team and of course we'll all see them as virtuous and awesome even though they had some serious warts (I do like how their ownership of slaves is brushed off, but the South in general is vilified.)

I think one of the biggest problems I have with the whole deal is society's utter hypocrisy. Last week it was okay to make money off of the flags, but now they are horrible? Last week there was minimal debate about the flags (like all "hot" topics in America) but this week everyone's a history expert? Hypocrite douchebags.

Speaking of....these assholes who equate the flag to the swastika...holy shit, how can anyone with half a brain compare the Nazis and the CSA is beyond me. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so misguided and sad. While we're discussing flags, the Union Jack is on the Hawaiian flag, but didn't we bail on those guys? If we're going to rise up as a country and order the ban on the CSA's flag then why allow ANY nation minus the US to be represented on a state flag?

Defacing graves or monuments is nothing more than a hate crime and should be treated as such. That isn't a protest, it is a hate crime.

My boys in the South need some help too, if only because none of them know what the hell they are arguing for. It isn't even an official flag, but many half-wits treat it as such. If they wanted to truly honor the state's right angle they would, as many of their predecessors did, use the Bonnie Blue Flag as their symbol. From my POV, there's a lot of stupidity and ignorance on both sides of the fence.

One last problem is our knee-jerk, emotional reaction to situations. Everyone's losing their minds over a topic that most won't remember next week. Again, if this is a problem (and I've made the same argument about racism or gun violence in our country) then it deserves a seven day a week, intelligent dialogue leading to an answer rather than a bunch of whargarbl placating the masses. Hate the South all you want to, but at least they committed to a solution, even if it were wrong. Today we run our mouths and "protest" on Twitter before rushing off to rabble rabble over the next problem du jour. Assholes. Keep solving the problem until it stays solved or don't bother in the first place.

Keep the flag and maintain the status quo until a resolution is enacted. Anything else is stupid and counter to what those men died for in the 1770's and 1860's.
 
I think people truly believe that only the South owned slaves. I'd really like to see how we characterized the components of what led up to the Civil War in some of the history books from 50-100 years ago. I'm sure none of them over simplified it to saying it was just about slavery, or at least explain that it was more about the control and economics of slavery... Not the freeing of slaves. That only happened later with Lincoln's war powers on the southern states, not in the North.
 
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The most ridiculous thing to me is this. That the people who not long ago were saying "its just a piece of cloth, its not about what it symbolizes" when referring to people protesting by stepping on the U.S. flag. Yet, when it comes to the Confederate flag those same individuals seem to see it as a symbol of racism/hate and not "just a piece of cloth". How can one be a piece of cloth but not the other?
 
K9Quest said:
The most ridiculous thing to me is this. That the people who not long ago were saying "its just a piece of cloth, its not about what it symbolizes" when referring to people protesting by stepping on the U.S. flag. Yet, when it comes to the Confederate flag those same individuals seem to see it as a symbol of racism/hate and not "just a piece of cloth". How can one be a piece of cloth but not the other?
Click to expand...

I hate all the stuff about Amazon and Apple taking down all things related.. I would be pissed if I created a Civil War app for iOS and had it taken down by ignorant things like this.
 
The ironic thing is this. The Dixiecrats (democrats for you of those not in the know, remember Strom Thurmond) are the very party who pushed for segregation and Jim Crow. It was the Republican party (yes the party of Lincoln) who opposed slavery, segregation and who pushed to dissolve that institution. Today the Democrats are shouting that there is inequality and spearheading the whole take down the flag campaign. When in reality, THEY are the ones who started the whole MESS.

But the low information crowd just does not get it or is too lazy to care. What was that phrase? WAKE UP AMERICA.
 
Florida173 said:
I think people truly believe that only the South owned slaves. I'd really like to see how we characterized the components of what led up to the Civil War in some of the history books from 50-100 years ago. I'm sure none of them over simplified it to saying it was just about slavery, or at least explain that it was more about the control and economics of slavery... Not the freeing of slaves. That only happened later with Lincoln's war powers on the southern states, not in the North.
Click to expand...

This was one of the main components that led our country down that road. I would wager most of the low information crowd has no idea.

The Tariff of 1828Edit
The Tariff of 1828, enacted on May 19, 1828, was a protective tariff passed by the U.S. Congress. It was the highest tariff in U.S. peacetime history up to that point, enacting a 62% tax on 92% of all imported goods. The goal of the tariff was to protect northern U.S. industries by placing a tax on low-priced imported goods, which had been driving northern industries out of business. Nevertheless, the South strongly resisted the Tariff of 1828 for several reasons. Firstly, they were forced to pay higher prices on goods that the region did not produce, and secondly, the reduced importation of British goods made it difficult for the British to pay for cotton imported from the South. In essence, the South was simultaneously forced to pay more for goods and to face reduced income from sales of raw materials.[2] These unfortunate results caused many in the South to refer to the Tariff of 1828 as the Tariff of Abominations.

Current Vice-President John C. Calhoun opposed the tariff and anonymously authored a pamphlet called the South Carolina Exposition and Protest, in when 1828, since many figured the tariff would be reduced.[3]
 
Red-Dot said:
The ironic thing is this. The Dixiecrats (democrats for you of those not in the know, remember Strom Thurmond) are the very party who pushed for segregation and Jim Crow. It was the Republican party (yes the party of Lincoln) who opposed slavery, segregation and who pushed to dissolve that institution. Today the Democrats are shouting that there is inequality and spearheading the whole take down the flag campaign. When in reality, THEY are the ones who started the whole MESS.

But the low information crowd just does not get it or is too lazy to care. What was that phrase? WAKE UP AMERICA.
Click to expand...
Great argument, but every time it comes up in a discussion, the typical response is "don't you know that the two parties switched ideological view points sides?" or something to that effect. It is funny how people choose to interpret history when it suits them.
 
Red-Dot said:
When was the great switch?
Click to expand...
Allegedly the switch occurred in the 60's during the Civil Rights Movement when most of the Dixiecrats were supposed to be primarily Conservative (read racist), and the Republicans were supposed to be primarily liberal. In order to hold up their specific ideology, the Dixiecrats were supposed to have defected to the Republican party. Ergo that is how the Republican party is filled with racists and church goers. Those Democrats that originally supported those racist policies were supposed to have left the party and thereby absolved the great Liberal church.

Not that I give a rat's ass about either shit stirring party, I am just sharing a common argument I hear when trying to enlighten the uninformed masses as to their historical roots.
 
The Clinton's seem to have forgotten that. I don't believe a switch ever occured, it was only manipulated to suit what the uninformed masses wanted to hear...
 

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In Columbia,SC this week...while walking to dinner there were about 10 trucks with confederate flags driving around the capital....small demonstration there....such a small area, it was a little surreal.
 

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