Retention and Recruitment Crisis

If they dropped the requirement from 6 graded ruck marches, to three graded ruck marches, and then eliminated a pass or fail endurance test - all in an effort to lower the attrition rate, then it doesn't matter to me WHAT gender they are discussing - what they have really done is compromise a standard.

If that standard was artificially elevated PURELY so that women couldn't readily pass - then there is a different discussion to be had.

But when the standard has been cut by over half of its previous performance level - and now women are routinely passing - then the article claiming that the standard hasn't changed is simply untrue.
The standard has been lowered.
...was it lowered so women could pass?
I dont know.
Was it lowered so that everyone could pass?
I dont know that either.
Is the standard lower than it used to be.
Yes. I'm going with yes - Final Answer.

The standard may be "equal" but the word "equal" has been diluted. Which only makes sense since most of us on this board have already agreed that "standards" is a word equally diluted by todays culture.

I agree with all of this. I don't think changing the standard was aimed at women (since they comprise such a small fraction of infantry officer candidates), but they are the disproportionate recipients of that change. In the case of the IOC I would be interested in seeing performance of the officers before the changes and after the changes to see if there was any degradation of performance.

The other conversation that needs to be had regardless of gender and across the military at large is, why is a standard a standard? Is it vetted and validated, or just some arbitrarily set 'thing' or 'number' that was invented because something had to be put on paper?
 
The other conversation that needs to be had regardless of gender and across the military at large is, why is a standard a standard? Is it vetted and validated, or just some arbitrarily set 'thing' or 'number' that was invented because something had to be put on paper?

For the longest time - the swim test was a prerequisite to even attending selection. Then things started getting retooled. At one point it was moved until later in the course - all the while the brass arguing that they didn't lower the standard - because you still have to do the swim test - even though it is no longer a prereq

"standards" and all that jazz
 
For the longest time - the swim test was a prerequisite to even attending selection. Then things started getting retooled. At one point it was moved until later in the course - all the while the brass arguing that they didn't lower the standard - because you still have to do the swim test - even though it is no longer a prereq

"standards" and all that jazz

I took a swim test in selection, and again in the Q course.
 
It was a prerequisite when I went - the first thing we did. In fact, you didn't even take the PT test until after you passed the swim test.


Its all good though - why do we even need to swim when we are driving armored trucks through the desert...
...standards are so silly.
 
It was a prerequisite when I went - the first thing we did. In fact, you didn't even take the PT test until after you passed the swim test.


Its all good though - why do we even need to swim when we are driving armored trucks through the desert...
...standards are so silly.

Yeahhhhh. I always thought was odd.

That's one 'good' thing about Navy and Marine boot camp, you know how to swim, or you don't graduate.
 
It was a prerequisite when I went - the first thing we did. In fact, you didn't even take the PT test until after you passed the swim test.


Its all good though - why do we even need to swim when we are driving armored trucks through the desert...
...standards are so silly.

Yeah for SFAS, not knowing how to swim could be extremely dangerous.
 
I think swimming should be included in ALL basic/boot camps, all branches. It's a basic skill that can save your life.

The Army and Air Force would be down to around 15% strength and swim training would add about a week to boot camp. I'm not arguing, just stating views.

As of 2001, Army OCS required a swim test for graduation. I'm not sure about today.
 
The Army and Air Force would be down to around 15% strength and swim training would add about a week to boot camp. I'm not arguing, just stating views.

As of 2001, Army OCS required a swim test for graduation. I'm not sure about today.

Oh, I understand, I get it. There are huge logistical hurdles, too. I guess my point is that some people say 'we're army/air force, why do we need to know how to swim?'
 
Gotta be careful against the modern culture war backdrop when you start talking about forcing an unnecessary swimming standard on people...

Folks like Gisele Fetterman might accuse you of having ulterior motives...
“Historically, swimming in America is very racist, and usually when you look at drowning statistics, it usually affects children of color, because of lack of access,”
 
The only reason services are meeting recruiting goals (huh, even the Corps) is because of this program started under the current administrator. MARP started in 2022, the number of conditions that would essentially get waived was 38. That number has increased to 51. Good times. DoD program makes it easier to enlist with ADHD, asthma, other medical conditions

I know we waived education requirements, we're looking past misdemeanors again, like we're not even at war folks.

The Army and Air Force would be down to around 15% strength and swim training would add about a week to boot camp. I'm not arguing, just stating views.

As of 2001, Army OCS required a swim test for graduation. I'm not sure about today.
The CWST is a bit of a joke if you at least did swimming lessons as a 5 year old and then touched the water a handful of times. You had to pass it pre LDAC back in my day or you didn't go. (or maybe that was just how VMI operated) There was this one dude who completely whigged out (he was black) at the water obstacle course, supposedly he had passed the CWST before showing up. Well he apparently refused to do the CWST when he got back to the University of Houston. Did not commission, had to enlist. Not sure if he ever made it...

Sink or swim - Army combat water survival training

Supposedly CWST was a yearly requirement? Maybe we missed that when I was a PL, because there would have been way more people using the pool at Bliss if that was the case.

Oh, I understand, I get it. There are huge logistical hurdles, too. I guess my point is that some people say 'we're army/air force, why do we need to know how to swim?'

The average Army post today has multiple Olympic lap pools today, they go under utilized. I rarely had to fight for a lane during PT when I was on Div Staff (thank god). Now before PT? Different discussion, apparently a bunch of dudes at USASMA liked to swim!
 
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It should be included in all elementary school curriculum. It's a necessary life skill.

At one point North Carolina was #3 in the US for drowning deaths, and they made a swim test required in NC universities as part of the mandatory phys ed class. One lap down, one lap back, tread for 20 minutes, check the box. If you failed, that was your PE elective: swimming. If you passed you could choose from a bunch of sports as the elective. They have long since done away with the requirement.
 
The only reason services are meeting recruiting goals (huh, even the Corps) is because of this program started under the current administrator. MARP started in 2022, the number of conditions that would essentially get waived was 38. That number has increased to 51. Good times. DoD program makes it easier to enlist with ADHD, asthma, other medical conditions

I know we waived education requirements, we're looking past misdemeanors again, like we're not even at war folks.


The CWST is a bit of a joke if you at least did swimming lessons as a 5 year old and then touched the water a handful of times. You had to pass it pre LDAC back in my day or you didn't go. (or maybe that was just how VMI operated) There was this one dude who completely whigged out (he was black) at the water obstacle course, supposedly he had passed the CWST before showing up. Well he apparently refused to do the CWST when he got back to the University of Houston. Did not commission, had to enlist. Not sure if he ever made it...

Sink or swim - Army combat water survival training

Supposedly CWST was a yearly requirement? Maybe we missed that when I was a PL, because there would have been way more people using the pool at Bliss if that was the case.



The average Army post today has multiple Olympic lap pools today, they go under utilized. I rarely had to fight for a lane during PT when I was on Div Staff (thank god). Now before PT? Different discussion, apparently a bunch of dudes at USASMA liked to swim!

Some of the previously non-waiverable conditions were just stupid, and that list should have been scrubbed.

RE: swim training and logistics, the pools are definitely the big upfront cost, but just an upfront cost. The bigger cost is paying for folks to get the extra MOS/NEC to be certified instructors, having to increase the TO of the training staff, the extra week of pay for the recruits, etc. That said I still think it should be done.

The Navy's third class swim qualification is all that's required to pass boot, and it's easy as fuck. Even the first class qual is pretty easy. The Marines' basic swim qual is a bit more difficult but still not bad.

In boot we had a big ol' Samoan, big as hell, bodybuilder, like no body fat. He couldn't swim, he'd just sink. They made him try a couple times: jump off the 3-meter platform, swim. After a couple tries they told him, 'just make to the end and back without touching the sides of the pool.' So he jumped of the platform, held his breath, and just walked the length of the pool.
 
Do you guys have additional duties? Heck most of the Army bases have swim lessons for the little kids done by the on staff life guards. I would argue that there are little costs here, just excuses. Heck the Soldiers could do this all on their free time to prep. But standards I guess.
 
Do you guys have additional duties? Heck most of the Army bases have swim lessons for the little kids done by the on staff life guards. I would argue that there are little costs here, just excuses. Heck the Soldiers could do this all on their free time to prep. But standards I guess.

I ALWAYS had collateral duties. In the Navy you have to get a NEC; that is, go to school to become a certified instructor. I believe it is the same for the Marines. And their water survival instructor school is no joke, extremely high attrition. Ironically the Navy's school is less hard.

But to your point it would be even less logistically and financially burdensome if the reg read something like "by the end of your first tour you must have completed blah blah blah...." It could be done.
 
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