Ronda Rousey- best MMA Fighter Ever?

[amlove21]

Discuss.

I don't think there is an argument against that statement. She is only getting better (well, faster anyway) at finishing opponents and rounding her game out.

Holm looks nowhere near ready to challenge, and she's beaten the top 5 contenders.

 

[Marine0311]

Discuss.

I don't think there is an argument against that statement. She is only getting better (well, faster anyway) at finishing opponents and rounding her game out.

Holm looks nowhere near ready to challenge, and she's beaten the top 5 contenders.

I do believe so. Given her lengthy background in judo and success in her short time in MMA. She has the work ethic of a warrior machine. 28 years old and all of that accomplished!?

 

[Ranger Psych]

She's the best one with ovaries that I've seen so far.

 

[TLDR20]

Best ever and best woman are different categories.

 

[Ooh-Rah]

Best ever and best woman are different categories.

Especially true when you consider the competition. She is so much better than the women that she is fighting that I would liken her to a Tiger Woods or even a Mike Tyson. They brought a new intensity to their sport and it took their competition time (and adjustments in their training regimen) to catch up. For example, how many fat/flabby pro golfers do you see on the tour today vs. when Tiger was coming up?

 

[amlove21]

Best ever and best woman are different categories.

Yeah, she's been the best woman since she got in the UFC. No one has been close.

I am saying I think she is hands down the most prolific and proficient MMA athlete the sport has seen. The data holds it up, and I can't come up with any good arguments otherwise.

There is always going to be the "well, she would get her ass whipped by a dude", but that's stupid. We compare fighters across weight classes the same way as far as pound for pound rankings go.

I think if she goes to 140 for the Cyborg fight, and wins, there are literally no questions left. That will put her at 8 or 9 title defenses, undefeated in 14 fights, and everything else she has already accomplished.

 

[Ooh-Rah]

@amlove21 -

When you add Liddell and Randy Couture to the conversation, the impact they had on the sport, and they way that they fought, I find it difficult to automatically hand the 'best of the best' trophy to her.

 

[Sendero]

I don't believe she has fought the competition that Silva, GSP, Jon Jones or even Matt Hughes fought as champions. She is fighting in a very shallow pool of fighters, because there aren't a lot of female fighters in that weight division.

The competition just isn't there yet, to say she is the GOAT. She is absolutely a beast at what she does though.

My respectful opinion.

 

[CDG]

She has not faced near the level of competition that Couture and Liddell faced. Those two had to fight each other. There's no one else on the women's side that can challenge her right now. I think that is due more to where female MMA is as a sport than her really being that much better. Other women will come along, she's just the first.

 

[Ranger Psych]

Liddell, Couture, Gracie, Rutten. She's the best woman in the sport today, if not so far... but you *cannot* say she's the best fighter ever, because she hasn't faced even as nearly large a field of fighters as anyone on the other side.

 

[amlove21]

@amlove21 -

When you add Liddell and Randy Couture to the conversation, the impact they had on the sport, and they way that they fought, I find it difficult to automatically hand the 'best of the best' trophy to her.

Yeah, I respect their contributions, cause they're huge. No doubt. But without Ronda Rousey, women's MMA is relegated to crappy undercards and gets nowhere near the push they do now, right?

I don't believe she has fought the competition that Silva, GSP, Jon Jones or even Matt Hughes fought as champions. She is fighting in a very shallow pool of fighters, because there aren't a lot of female fighters in that weight division.

The competition just isn't there yet, to say she is the GOAT. She is absolutely a beast at what she does though.

My respectful opinion.

I don't know if I agree with the talent in her opposition argument. I understand it, but it's sort of hard to quantify that. She's just so good everyone else looks bad. And granted, the women's side of MMA isn't very grown up yet- but I don't like holding that against Rousey. It's sort of like the SEC- ok, great, your conference is harder or stocked with talent or whatver you wanna say. But when an SEC school gets smoked by a Big 10 team in the playoffs, that argument sort of nullifies itself.

It really doesn't this was just a great way for me to bring up THE Ohio State Buckeyes winning the national championship game this year.

Liddell, Couture, Gracie, Rutten. She's the best woman in the sport today, if not so far... but you *cannot* say she's the best fighter ever, because she hasn't faced even as nearly large a field of fighters as anyone on the other side.

Yeah, I see that.

Anyway, I really do think her career is going to be unparalleled, for a man or woman. She's already there.

 

[TLDR20]

Cheryl Miller is the best female basketball player of all time, by a long shot, she is a long way from the best player of all time. I think this is a similar situation.

 

[AWP]

The best? No. Top 5? I think one could make that argument when you discuss her impact on the sport. Until she's consistently beating men in her weight class I couldn't argue for her as "the best."

 

[amlove21]

Cheryl Miller is the best female basketball player of all time, by a long shot, she is a long way from the best player of all time. I think this is a similar situation.

I agree- but I also disagree. I think your point is really good, but I also think it's the difference here.

Was Cheryl Miller so transcendently good that you watched every game she played? Did she open your eyes to women's basketball? I would argue no, but with Rousey, that argument isn't hard to make at all. The same sort of conversation got started when Tiger Woods started winning a predominantly white dude's dame in the late 90's. It wasn't because he was a minority- it was because he was the best and he did more for that sport than anyone else in the last 20 years. Same with LeBron- people that don't even watch basketball will watch LeBron play because he might be the best basketball player in the last 15 years, or maybe he keeps going and is in the top 5 all time, etc.

Except in Rousey's case, I think you could say no one has ever made an impact like her outside of the Gracie family and Dana White, as far as MMA is concerned.

ETA- at least some part of Tiger's success was because he was a minority, because minorities didn't frequently watch golf until Tiger gave them a reason. But more people in general tuned in to golf- not just minorities.

The best? No. Top 5? I think one could make that argument when you discuss her impact on the sport. Until she's consistently beating men in her weight class I couldn't argue for her as "the best."

I just don't like this argument. Granted- same weight class, same skill level, I think it would be interesting to see Rousey fight a dude for real. She spars with guys- guys that are much bigger than her, usually- in training frequently.

Now, granted, TJ Dillashaw and Uriah Faber (Bantamweights) would most likely beat Rousey in a fight- but I would be more than willing to bet that against lesser males she wins, sometimes dominates. And that raises the question- let's say she beats even one bona fide 135lb dude. What then? What if she beats 25% of the division? What if she, in a freak occurance, ties Faber up in an armbar and gets the tap? What would she have to do to pass the "beat a guy" test, which IMO is silly any way.

 

[ThunderHorse]

When Joe Rogan said she was the greatest female fighter of all time I choked up so hard. Ludicrous, if it's just as a fighter it was Holly Holm as a boxer. That record speaks for itself.

Rousey is great, I just wish she was nice sometimes. She gets into feuds way too easy...or Dana is stirring the pot as if he's Vince McMahon .

 

[amlove21]

When Joe Rogan said she was the greatest female fighter of all time I choked up so hard. Ludicrous, if it's just as a fighter it was Holly Holm as a boxer. That record speaks for itself.

Rousey is great, I just wish she was nice sometimes. She gets into feuds way too easy...or Dana is stirring the pot as if he's Vince McMahon .

Oh, dude, I hate Rousey's attitude. I dislike how she goes about fights and promotions. Doesn't take away from her skill or her record though, unfortunately.

 

[Ranger Psych]

I just don't like this argument. Granted- same weight class, same skill level, I think it would be interesting to see Rousey fight a dude for real. She spars with guys- guys that are much bigger than her, usually- in training frequently.

Now, granted, TJ Dillashaw and Uriah Faber (Bantamweights) would most likely beat Rousey in a fight- but I would be more than willing to bet that against lesser males she wins, sometimes dominates. And that raises the question- let's say she beats even one bona fide 135lb dude. What then? What if she beats 25% of the division? What if she, in a freak occurance, ties Faber up in an armbar and gets the tap? What would she have to do to pass the "beat a guy" test, which IMO is silly any way.

then it shows her true place as the lower 1/2 of competitors in mma...

 

[AWP]

I just don't like this argument. Granted- same weight class, same skill level, I think it would be interesting to see Rousey fight a dude for real. She spars with guys- guys that are much bigger than her, usually- in training frequently.

Now, granted, TJ Dillashaw and Uriah Faber (Bantamweights) would most likely beat Rousey in a fight- but I would be more than willing to bet that against lesser males she wins, sometimes dominates. And that raises the question- let's say she beats even one bona fide 135lb dude. What then? What if she beats 25% of the division? What if she, in a freak occurance, ties Faber up in an armbar and gets the tap? What would she have to do to pass the "beat a guy" test, which IMO is silly any way.

The "beat a guy" test matters because of equality. If she were beating everyone in her weight class, defending titles left and right against EVERYONE in her weight class, you'd have zero argument from me. This is little different than saying the UConn or Tennessee's women's basketball programs are better than Duke's or Kentucky's. They are beating women, but not beating everyone. See also: Ray Rice.

Seriously, if Rousey were beating everyone, not just every woman, I think you could make your case for her. She would be a pioneer who transcends Liddell, Couture, and the like, but as it stands she's the best woman and the bar by which other women will be judged.

 

[amlove21]

The "beat a guy" test matters because of equality. If she were beating everyone in her weight class, defending titles left and right against EVERYONE in her weight class, you'd have zero argument from me. This is little different than saying the UConn or Tennessee's women's basketball programs are better than Duke's or Kentucky's. They are beating women, but not beating everyone. See also: Ray Rice.

Seriously, if Rousey were beating everyone, not just every woman, I think you could make your case for her. She would be a pioneer who transcends Liddell, Couture, and the like, but as it stands she's the best woman and the bar by which other women will be judged.

Let's apply this in reverse- what women have Couture, Liddell, and other legendary MMA athletes beaten to cement their"beat all comers" status? Is that critique valid? I don't think it is, but since Rousey is a female in a male dominated sport, a strict double standard gets applied.

Unfortunately, it's the old "equality" and "justice" argument. Equality is "Rousey fights a dude". Justice is "Let's look at her accomplishments objectively and not use a double standard we don't ever entertain for men".

 

[AWP]

Let's apply this in reverse- what women have Couture, Liddell, and other legendary MMA athletes beaten to cement their"beat all comers" status? Is that critique valid? I don't think it is, but since Rousey is a female in a male dominated sport, a strict double standard gets applied.

Unfortunately, it's the old "equality" and "justice" argument. Equality is "Rousey fights a dude". Justice is "Let's look at her accomplishments objectively and not use a double standard we don't ever entertain for men".

You make vaild points but the whole argument is predicated on "what if's" which we can do forever. We can keep those relevant to the topic, but in the end this is all speculation. I would say it is laughable to think Couture or Liddell would lose to a woman, the odds are certainly not in her favor, but anything could happen. One day a woman could be in SOF, but how many would fail in the process? More than men if the Marines and Pre-Ranger "experiments" are a decent barometer. Rousey beating a man is less likely than most men at a championship level losing to a woman. The only real way to settle the argument will never happen.