SOCOM Study finds Camp Perry competitors are 300% more skillful at shooting than Snipers.

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http://armyreservemarksman.info/2012/12/14/shooting-skill-snipers-vs-competition-shooters/

Shooting Skill: Snipers vs. Competition Shooters
by John M. Buol Jr.


Project White Feather is a U.S. Special Operations Command (SOCOM)-sponsored effort to apply advanced sniper weapon fire control technology that will extend range and increase first round hit probability for special operations applications. As envisioned, the fire control will provide the shooter a real-time ballistically corrected aim point with input from a laser crosswind sensor, laser range finder, inertial sensors that measure weapon motion, as well as other
sensors.

The Weapons & Materials Research Directorate of the Army Research Laboratory published a white paper of these efforts called Sniper Weapon Fire Control Error Budget Analysis To establish a baseline, groups of snipers and competition shooters were tested. Weapon Pointing (aiming) Error, the ability of a shooter to hold his or her aim on target, was obviously a key test.

According to their tests, the standard deviation of aiming error for the best, formally-trained operational snipers was three times worse than tested High Power and Long Range competition shooters sufficiently skilled to compete successfully in national level match competition at Camp Perry and the like. In fact, the worst competition shooters tested were as good or better than the best snipers in basic holding and shooting fundamentals.

Sniper Weapon Fire Control Error Budget Analysis
Weapons & Materials Research Directorate, Army Research Laboratory
ARL-TR-2065

http://www.arl.army.mil/arlreports/1999/ARL-TR-2065.pdf

Table 4. Sniper’s Approximate Aiming Error
SIGMA (in mils) – Constant Across Range
Page 16
Quality of Shooter: Operational sniper Camp Perry competitor
< .300 Magnum
Best 0.30 0.10
Worst 0.80 0.30
>.300Magnum
Best 0.50 0.20
Worst 1.20 0.50

This should bring some interesting comments…lol

John the author was one of my fellow instructors at TF SARG. Probably one of the best combat pistol/rifle shooters in the unit during that period in time. It goes without saying that the competitive shooting communities are normally better shooters, mainly b/c it is what they do (have to be the best), but I think the article should have explained that the Snipers role is not just shooting and that there are several skill-sets involved outside of being able to hold a rifle steady and apply the proper fundamentals of marksmanship. It almost came off as a “look us high power shooters are better than you guys” which would not be completely uncommon from that community.

The advanced Sniper weapon fire control technology sounds very interesting however. I would like to know more about it, if anyone can share…
 
I think the article should have explained that the Snipers role is not just shooting and that there are several skill-sets involved outside of being able to hold a rifle steady and apply the proper fundamentals of marksmanship.
Or trying to work in extremely hazardous conditions i.e. someone shooting back:rolleyes: ...Pretty interesting article though.
 
Different needs and different skill sets...... I know who I would want on my side in a long range argument! Interesting new kit though.
 
I'd be willing to bet that the civvie competitors shoot far more rounds per year than an Army sniper.

This is kind of like comparing Formula 1 and Top Fuel drag racing. A champion F1 guy might not be a good drag racer and vice versa.
 
I think a lot of the marksmanship skills do carry over, to name two that really stick out.:
· Reading & correcting the effects of wind & gravity.
· Fundamentals of Marksmanship (building positions, proper trigger control and fallow through, sight alignment/aiming and learning to control/use proper breath & heart rate control)

I think that the competitiveness of pushing to be the best in anything will always make you better in the (proper) application of those skill-sets in the operational environment.

Also, looking at past highly respected Snipers, such as Carlos Hathcock. You can see that they did start out in the high power/long range competitive shooting arena, as well as maintained competitive presences after their operational time. So I do think it is a bit hard to totally disregard the competitive knowledge and experience as it applies to the operational environment. There is a reason why a lot of SOF and now LE are now seeking long range rifle training from individuals like Todd Hodnett, who are world renowned competitive shooters. There is also a reason why a lot of SOF now host Sniper competitions, further pushing Snipers to better themselves. However, I think most would agree that the training being seek’ed out from the competitive shooters is not in Operational planning, TTP’s, or intelligence gathering, etc.

The main point I am trying to make, is that even though I fully support new technology that will make any Sniper better at his job. I think that a study like this also shows, that the Sniper community can still learn from competitive shooters, and that becoming a competitive shooter will only advance their marksmanship skill-sets, which in return will only make Snipers better at what they need to be able to do on the engagement end of that job.

Rampart, several of the AMU, SARG, MTU shooters, are also Snipers with several years operational experience under their belts. I have several personal friends who are top level competitors (double distinguished, Presidents Hundred, world champions, etc) who I would want nothing more than to have by my side in a gunfight/watching my back during an operation.

Free, your point is very valid and I think it kind of drives home the point I am trying to make. A civi, or mil competitive shooter who is putting down large amounts of ammo (i.e. gaining knowledge at a higher rate) has something to share with the guy who is not gaining that knowledge.

Just my .02
 
The main point I am trying to make, is that even though I fully support new technology that will make any Sniper better at his job. I think that a study like this also shows, that the Sniper community can still learn from competitive shooters, and that becoming a competitive shooter will only advance their marksmanship skill-sets, which in return will only make Snipers better at what they need to be able to do on the engagement end of that job.

To tag along with the point above, I know a certain unit at Bragg has brought in top USPSA and IDPA shooters (I've heard Todd Jarrett mention it), not to mention some guy named Larry Vickers who co-founded IDPA. There's a lot of room for crossing over between the two "species" of shooter.
 
There will never be any harm done by looking around to see who you can learn from. A gain is a gain regardless of origin. I would also expect competitive shooters to be better as they have very finely tuned weapons and equipment built purely for accuracy. Military equipment needs to be a lot tougher and to operate in much less optimal conditions.

The sheer volume of trigger time pro shooters put in should see them ahead if they are doing it intelligently.

They have done the work, lets learn from them that we may be that bit better ourselves.
 
Stalking and fieldcraft is infinitely more important than being a crack shot. A sniper after all is trying to kill a human, not a paper target, and one is a little bit easier to kill ;)

This is kind of a double edged sword. Being great at field craft & stalking, but sucking at making the shot is IMHO kind of pointless for the engagement portion of the job. Same can go for being incredibly good at field craft, stalking and shooting, but sucking on intelligence collection, target identification, etc. Being that the article is focused around the engagement aspect (the smaller aspect in a Sniper's job) I wonder why some are quick to dismiss the connection between competitive shooting and shooting in combat (i.e applying marksmanship to the two way range) .

Every soldier that I have every trained, was trained shooting at a paper/plastic/steel target that was not shooting back. Furthermore Sniper school teaches soldier on paper/plastic/steel targets that are not shooting back. The point is not about trying to build a divide between realism and competition, as we all know that divide is there and always will be. But more about building the connection between the skill-sets in both worlds, so that we can take those skill-sets from both worlds to advance the Sniper (or any shooter) in his overall mission.

Some people view these types of data/statistical approaches as an attack on the profession, or more so as someone trying to claim A is better than B. Some view them with a bit of humbleness and seek to gain knowledge and advancement through any means necessary. I applaud SOCOM for even conducting such a study, because it does show (to me) that they are continuing to evolve and progress through any means available. I just wish the conventional side had the same humbleness to put it to a test, and let the cards fall where they may.

That all said, the article, study, equipment and this discussion become pointless if we fail to adequately use the information and make follow on adjustments in how we approach training.
 
That all said, the article, study, equipment and this discussion become pointless if we fail to adequately use the information and make follow on adjustments in how we approach training.

That is the important bit right there:thumbsup: Any true professional will learn whatever and whenever possible from any source and put it to their own advantage. In terms of warcraft, who can say what tiny little edge will be the one that makes the difference that saves a life? I will take all I can get going my way.
 
That is the important bit right there:thumbsup: Any true professional will learn whatever and whenever possible from any source and put it to their own advantage. In terms of warcraft, who can say what tiny little edge will be the one that makes the difference that saves a life? I will take all I can get going my way.

Completely agree. The man (or woman) who is too stubborn to constantly learn and refine their military prowess and combat skill set are the same individuals that will be ill prepared when the sh*t hits the fan.
 
Rampart, several of the AMU, SARG, MTU shooters, are also Snipers with several years operational experience under their belts. I have several personal friends who are top level competitors (double distinguished, Presidents Hundred, world champions, etc) who I would want nothing more than to have by my side in a gunfight/watching my back during an operation.

My point here was not well made.
Different needs and different skill sets...... I know who I would want on my side in a long range argument! Interesting new kit though.

I was referring to the fact that in the Snipers typical operational situation (An over simplified description I know) I would want to know that the other guy on my team was capable of doing a whole lot more than just shooting well. I would also like to say that I am not surprised that there individuals who move in both worlds with accomplishment.

I certainly was not trying to run competitive shooters down or give offence to any individual. If my earlier post has offended so please accept my apologies. I shall take myself out and self administer several uppercuts.
 
My point here was not well made.


I was referring to the fact that in the Snipers typical operational situation (An over simplified description I know) I would want to know that the other guy on my team was capable of doing a whole lot more than just shooting well. I would also like to say that I am not surprised that there individuals who move in both worlds with accomplishment.

I certainly was not trying to run competitive shooters down or give offence to any individual. If my earlier post has offended so please accept my apologies. I shall take myself out and self administer several uppercuts.
Please video this and post it here...for posterity, of course. :D
Also, one thing you'll learn here is that many of our discussions bring differing points of view/opinions to the table. We usually do a pretty good job of keeping these discussions or debates very professional. So, unless you start resorting to name calling or spouting off about something with which you have no experience (see: high schoolers who start sentences off with "I'm only 15, but I read on the internet that...") then I don't see any need for apology. Often times, all that's needed is more clarification. :thumbsup:
Just my $.02
 
My point here was not well made.


I was referring to the fact that in the Snipers typical operational situation (An over simplified description I know) I would want to know that the other guy on my team was capable of doing a whole lot more than just shooting well. I would also like to say that I am not surprised that there individuals who move in both worlds with accomplishment.

I certainly was not trying to run competitive shooters down or give offence to any individual. If my earlier post has offended so please accept my apologies. I shall take myself out and self administer several uppercuts.

I take no issue at all with your post, I agree that someone who is only able to shoot, but is lost like a bastard on fathers day in TTP's, tactical skill-set, etc, is about worthless in the operational environment. I was merely pointing out that not all of those competition guys are lame-dicks.;-)
 
Please video this and post it here...for posterity, of course. :D
Also, one thing you'll learn here is that many of our discussions bring differing points of view/opinions to the table. We usually do a pretty good job of keeping these discussions or debates very professional.

Thanks Mate.
A slight deviation from the thread....
Sorry task was completed prior to reading this post. Owing to damage sustained I am reluctant to repeat the "corrective training" to meet the request:wall:

The main reason I decided to actual sign up was the professional atmosphere and the vigour with which non professional behaviour is corrected. I have been impressed for a long time with the quality and maturity of posts on this forum.

End of deviation.
 
I understand that everyone is a critic, in keeping with being as controversial as possible- here I go.

A couple observations from conventional snipers who I've met through the years, both at SOTIC and beyond-
- Benning Sniper school spends a of time doing their own assessment (giving you the opportunity to quit) when they could've been shooting.
- Benning School still collects DOPE in a dope book- completely irrelevant with the addition of PDAs.
- Range estimation is heavily weighted. If I don't have a range finder, a spotting scope, a riflescope, or binos to determine distance, I'm already at the E2 of my PACE plan- shit has gone bad, it's time to go home.
- Target detection is heavily weighted. I somehow lost my cleaning rod and now need to find it with my naked eye from 50 meters away, what a day.

I think a lot of these things are relevant, but when you stress them to such a degree that they become as important as shooting or take time away from it- they are nothing but a distraction. At the end of the day, your job is to hit a target with a bullet- everything else is complimentary. I'm no Camp Perry shooter by any means, but I think the Army can do things to close the gap.
 
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