The Israel / Palestine Thread

AWP

Formerly Known as Freefalling
SOF Support
Joined
Sep 8, 2006
Messages
16,425
Location
Not Afghanistan
The first flight from the UAE to Israel flew this week. Etihad is one of two state-owned airlines in the UAE, so this normalization thing is proceeding at a rapid pace.

UAE officials talk ties with Israel and US in Abu Dhabi meeting

Senior Emirati, American and Israeli officials met on Monday evening to discuss ways to develop further co-operation between the UAE and Israel, and signed new deals.

Dr Sultan Al Jaber, Minister of Industry and Advanced Technology, and Minister of State for Financial Affairs Obaid Al Tayer met at Emirates Palace with Israeli executives, US Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin and US ambassador to the UAE, John Rakolta.

And then there's this, also from Etihad:

Etihad has also launched a Hebrew-language page to cater to Israeli tourists and visitors.

The UAE isn't messing around.
 

AWP

Formerly Known as Freefalling
SOF Support
Joined
Sep 8, 2006
Messages
16,425
Location
Not Afghanistan
Some links with more info on the UAE/ Israel/ everyone else normalization of relations w/ Israel topic:

- 90 days without a visa for residents travelling to Israel from the UAE and vice versa. 90 freaking days...that's kind of big.
UAE and Israel agree on 90-day visa-free travel for Emiratis

- More talks between the US and UAE this week. I think that's a polite way of saying, "Fuck you, Iran" and working towards what I believe to be one end state: Emirati F-35's.
UAE and US to work together to combat extremism and boost regional stability after forging strategic partnership
The UAE and the US have vowed closely to bolster regional security, counter extremism and promote tolerance.

The two nations agreed to a strategic dialogue this week aiming to enhance ties across key areas.

They are politics, defence, law enforcement and border security, intelligence and counter-terrorism, human rights, economics, culture and academics, and space.

- Apparently, Israel has been at this for awhile now, so a lot of what is coming together has been years in the making, albeit under the radar. Israel's role in the US NOT designating Qatar as a state supporter of terrorism is kind of surprising, but also makes sense given factors cited in the article.
With or without normalization, expert on Gulf sees Israel as regional peacemaker

- A pretty good roll-up of where countries stand right now, with several waiting to see who wins in November. Curiously (or not depending upon your views), a Biden win could prevent other nations from recognizing Israel w/ the Palestinians supporting a Biden win.*
Countries waiting to see if Trump wins before moving on Israel normalization

* - Rant here, going out of news mode, when Islamic nations are turning their backs on Palestinians, but a US presidential candidate does NOT? I don't have the words, I really don't.
 

ThunderHorse

Verified Military
Joined
Feb 22, 2012
Messages
4,943
Location
The Big D
The fact that Omar didn't get censured by her party when she went to the West Bank and did her level best to avoid any interaction with the Israeli government I'll never know.

There could have been peace in the Middle East long ago if Palestinians wanted it. But it's good to see the shift of powers away from supporting the "forever refugee".
 

AWP

Formerly Known as Freefalling
SOF Support
Joined
Sep 8, 2006
Messages
16,425
Location
Not Afghanistan
This just came a LOT sooner than I ever expected...A LOT sooner. This is huge. Or Yuge if you prefer.

Israel won't block UAE buying F-35 stealth fighters

After hashing out a deal to secure new high-tech hardware from the US to upgrade the Israeli military, Defence Minister Benny Gantz said on Friday that they would not oppose the sale of “specific weapons systems” to the UAE.
 

AWP

Formerly Known as Freefalling
SOF Support
Joined
Sep 8, 2006
Messages
16,425
Location
Not Afghanistan
5 days after my last post, this story breaks.

Trump Administration Wants To Sell UAE A Fleet Of 50 F-35s

President Donald Trump’s administration has informed Congress that it plans to sell the United Arab Emirates 50 F-35 stealth fighters. Backed by the U.S. State Department, the proposed deal still faces significant hurdles, largely stemming from concerns about how it might affect Israel’s so-called “qualitative military edge” in the Middle East. There has already been some pushback from legislators to this latest announcement and representatives of Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden’s campaign have also voiced hesitation over how they might handle the deal.

To put this into perspective, Israel's deal for F-35's is...50.

If Biden's elected, forget the UAE getting -35's. It won't happen. If the Senate goes Dem, it probably won't happen.
 

R.Caerbannog

Verified Military
Joined
Nov 4, 2015
Messages
1,535
5 days after my last post, this story breaks.

Trump Administration Wants To Sell UAE A Fleet Of 50 F-35s



To put this into perspective, Israel's deal for F-35's is...50.

If Biden's elected, forget the UAE getting -35's. It won't happen. If the Senate goes Dem, it probably won't happen.
Just outta curiosity, is there any possibility that the UAE can distribute that tech to our adversaries or renege on peace in the middle east? This is me spitballing, but I wonder how they'll behave when they have stealth aircraft in their inventory. Maybe I'm being paranoid, but I'm thinking the Arab world is playing nice to get their hands on F-35 tech.

Some of the Middle Easts biggest energy market customers are in Asia. What's to stop them from taking that tech and using it to push us and our allies out of the region, while strengthening ties with China?
 

AWP

Formerly Known as Freefalling
SOF Support
Joined
Sep 8, 2006
Messages
16,425
Location
Not Afghanistan
Just outta curiosity, is there any possibility that the UAE can distribute that tech to our adversaries or renege on peace in the middle east? This is me spitballing, but I wonder how they'll behave when they have stealth aircraft in their inventory. Maybe I'm being paranoid, but I'm thinking the Arab world is playing nice to get their hands on F-35 tech.

Some of the Middle Easts biggest energy market customers are in Asia. What's to stop them from taking that tech and using it to push us and our allies out of the region, while strengthening ties with China?

That's kind of complicated, I think, but a solid concern.

So, the UAE is strengthening economic ties w/ many nations including China and Russia. Both have stealth programs and frankly, China's stolen a lot of data on the -35. How much is left for them to steal? No idea.

Like I posted earlier, Lockheed will have reps on the ground who will control the physical components, so your secret stealing/ sharing would be limited to...RAM paint samples and plans, the latter of which China already has.

The -35's will also be tailored to the UAE, so some of our sensitive avionics will not be in the jet. I would imagine that the Lockheed ALIS or USAF developed replacement software will have some NSA-approved and monitored backdoors.

The UAE getting -35's over making a run at China's stealth a/c would make me believe that the UAE will not do anything to jeopardize the deal. Plus, the deal will take several years to finalize and then several more for the airframes to arrive. The US is already working on a 6th gen a/c. The -35's will be far from obsolete, but we'll be on the path to fielding better tech by the time they arrive at Dhafra or Liwa in operational squadrons.

There's risk in anything, but I'd think it is pretty low.
 

Florida173

SOF Support
Joined
Oct 14, 2008
Messages
1,948
Location
NCR
Just outta curiosity, is there any possibility that the UAE can distribute that tech to our adversaries or renege on peace in the middle east? This is me spitballing, but I wonder how they'll behave when they have stealth aircraft in their inventory. Maybe I'm being paranoid, but I'm thinking the Arab world is playing nice to get their hands on F-35 tech.

Some of the Middle Easts biggest energy market customers are in Asia. What's to stop them from taking that tech and using it to push us and our allies out of the region, while strengthening ties with China?

I highly doubt anything of the sort. UAE is a pretty solid ally. Any collapse of KSA dominance in the region would be a good opportunity for UAE. They are already doing better than most on force projection in some of conflict areas and I would always take a UAE SOF guy over a KSA SOF guy.
 

AWP

Formerly Known as Freefalling
SOF Support
Joined
Sep 8, 2006
Messages
16,425
Location
Not Afghanistan
Of us?

I must have missed a memo.

They are. They've made overtures to strengthen military ties between our nations. We've been at Al Dhafra for over a decade now and the Navy has ports it can put into for maintenance. We've felt secure enough here to operate F-22's, F-35's, AWACS, U-2's and other airframes. Our Military Attaché to the UAE is a 2-star former 5th Group guy.

The above is the tip of the iceberg.
 

GOTWA

Half Faceless Man
Verified Military
Joined
Jul 3, 2017
Messages
661
Just outta curiosity, is there any possibility that the UAE can distribute that tech to our adversaries or renege on peace in the middle east? This is me spitballing, but I wonder how they'll behave when they have stealth aircraft in their inventory. Maybe I'm being paranoid, but I'm thinking the Arab world is playing nice to get their hands on F-35 tech.

Some of the Middle Easts biggest energy market customers are in Asia. What's to stop them from taking that tech and using it to push us and our allies out of the region, while strengthening ties with China?
There's nothing to stop them per se, but ITAR items cannot be resold after purchase without concurrent approval from the US.
 

R.Caerbannog

Verified Military
Joined
Nov 4, 2015
Messages
1,535
That's kind of complicated, I think, but a solid concern.

So, the UAE is strengthening economic ties w/ many nations including China and Russia. Both have stealth programs and frankly, China's stolen a lot of data on the -35. How much is left for them to steal? No idea.

Like I posted earlier, Lockheed will have reps on the ground who will control the physical components, so your secret stealing/ sharing would be limited to...RAM paint samples and plans, the latter of which China already has.

The -35's will also be tailored to the UAE, so some of our sensitive avionics will not be in the jet. I would imagine that the Lockheed ALIS or USAF developed replacement software will have some NSA-approved and monitored backdoors.

The UAE getting -35's over making a run at China's stealth a/c would make me believe that the UAE will not do anything to jeopardize the deal. Plus, the deal will take several years to finalize and then several more for the airframes to arrive. The US is already working on a 6th gen a/c. The -35's will be far from obsolete, but we'll be on the path to fielding better tech by the time they arrive at Dhafra or Liwa in operational squadrons.

There's risk in anything, but I'd think it is pretty low.
Gotcha. Reason I was asking was back in 2013 I was finding out that China had plans for the F-35 and had made it's own chinesium version the 'snowy owl'. Few years later when our F-35's got to Turkey(?) there was a leaked audio tape of some Russians engineers/scientists who somehow got access to them. Russian eggheads said something akin to being over a decade behind us based on their cursory examinations.

While the cat's been outta the bag for a while, for some reason a Middle Eastern nation having F-35 tech gives me pause. Maybe I'm being obtuse, but I worry a technologically advanced Middle East may be bad in the long term. With all the dogma and hatred down there I wonder if our tech will start going head to head as our allies gain strength and decide to go it on their own.

Other thing that gives me pause is asset rich nations, like Saudi Arabia, will use the pretext of the UAE getting planes to get that tech for their own. Not to mention that many Gulf States and other 'allied' nations support our ideological enemies. Good example would be the Saudi's and their involvement in Cuba or the Turks and their BS with Isis.

I dunno man, maybe I'm being paranoid, but I worry that a Middle East nation with the right technological might could be disastrous to the western world. That coupled with a declining western birthrate and the various social issues we're having... I see our tech proliferating as something that will negatively affect us down the line.

If the sales go through I hope we have that 6th gen tech a/c online.
I highly doubt anything of the sort. UAE is a pretty solid ally. Any collapse of KSA dominance in the region would be a good opportunity for UAE. They are already doing better than most on force projection in some of conflict areas and I would always take a UAE SOF guy over a KSA SOF guy.
Gotcha dude, that makes a lot of sense. Though at the moment we're fighting a common enemy. I'm thinking more what's going to happen after things have settled down and they start getting restless over resources like water, trade, and farmland. The allies of today may not always be the allies of tomorrow.

There's nothing to stop them per se, but ITAR items cannot be resold after purchase without concurrent approval from the US.
I get that, I really do. But we can't always trust the rule of law or current strength to protect our technology. Heck... imagine we get another administration that gave concessions to a nation like Iran, except the concession wouldn't be money, but military tech.
 

AWP

Formerly Known as Freefalling
SOF Support
Joined
Sep 8, 2006
Messages
16,425
Location
Not Afghanistan
Gotcha. Reason I was asking was back in 2013 I was finding out that China had plans for the F-35 and had made it's own chinesium version the 'snowy owl'. Few years later when our F-35's got to Turkey(?) there was a leaked audio tape of some Russians engineers/scientists who somehow got access to them. Russian eggheads said something akin to being over a decade behind us based on their cursory examinations.

Turkey never had -35's. They were a part of the program and had a cockpit mockup, but were dumped before a single airframe went to the country. China probably stole more info from hacked servers than Turkey could have given them.
 

R.Caerbannog

Verified Military
Joined
Nov 4, 2015
Messages
1,535
Turkey never had -35's. They were a part of the program and had a cockpit mockup, but were dumped before a single airframe went to the country. China probably stole more info from hacked servers than Turkey could have given them.
I thought Turkey got two airframes in before they went full derp and had them taken away. There was an airshow with them displaying two F-35 air frames with a screen flying a Turkish flag in the back. Unless those were both mockups.

This was at the time before the Turks finalized the S-400 deal with the Russian's.
 

AWP

Formerly Known as Freefalling
SOF Support
Joined
Sep 8, 2006
Messages
16,425
Location
Not Afghanistan
I thought Turkey got two airframes in before they went full derp and had them taken away. There was an airshow with them displaying two F-35 air frames with a screen flying a Turkish flag in the back. Unless those were both mockups.

This was at the time before the Turks finalized the S-400 deal with the Russian's.

If they did I don't see it in a quick Google search. You have a link?
 

R.Caerbannog

Verified Military
Joined
Nov 4, 2015
Messages
1,535
If they did I don't see it in a quick Google search. You have a link?
I don't. I checked as well, but I couldn't find that specific show on google or duckduck go.

I remember there being some sort of trade show with a plane in the forefront and an giant LCD/LED screen flying the Turkish flash and flashing promotional material for the F-35. Now that I think of it, it could have been some sort of youtube video attached to an article. Lemme see if I can find it.

This is the closest thing I remember seeing. The ceremony was at Fort Worth around 21 June 2018, but the Turks weren't kicked outta the program until 19 July 2019. Did those two planes get to Turkey?
Turkey officially kicked out of F-35 program, costing US half a billion dollars

Also, there was something about F-35 parts being made in Turkey. Maybe that's where the Russians got their sneak peek.
 
Top