The Marijuana Debate

@JBS do you have a scientific study that shows that using marijuana damages the brain cells of adults?

Because you said this
JBS said:
And by that you must be excluding the clincical studies I linked to earlier in the thread that flatly contradict what some posters (including those you mentioned) are saying. Namely that no evidence exists that marijuana causes brain damage. I'm not sure why you're taking it personally (or appear to be). They said there's no evidence, then I posted EVIDENCE. That's where the debate should focus, IMO.

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I didn't in any of your posts find a link to a study or any research pointing to damage from marijuana usage to the brain of an adult. And as was pointed out, by science, even after smoking through a facemask the equivalent of 6 joints per day for 365 straight days, there is no evidence of brain damage, cell death, or cell abnormality in the brain. Even in the studies you semi-linked to it specifically said that while abnormalities were shown, the cause of the abnormalities was not known, and that the same abnormalities would not occur in an adult.

Now as to the point about why only adult studies should matter when addressing the legalization of a substance. First off I will use a comparison, which to me feels very accurate. Let us say we are about to lower the age you can legally drive a car from 18 to 16, and there was all this data saying that at age 16 the reflexes and cognitive capacity was there to drive at age 16, but then the opposing side has all this information about 14 year old drivers, and then presented that evidence as supporting their claim that the age shouldn't be lowered to 16. This is what you are doing in this argument. Many of us are arguing for the legalization of a substance for use by responsible adults in the privacy of their homes. But you are arguing against that use for reasons that will remain illegal. Underage use will remain illegal, just as underage drinking is illegal, and buying tobacco for minors is illegal, and in the context of my analogy 14 year olds would still not be able to drive. You are using a platform for your argument that doesn't even fit in the parameters of the discussion. This is the most frustrating part of any discussion of this topic. You are arguing against legalization because of things that will still be illegal.
 
So...."weed's bad and shouldn't be legal."

Why aren't we banning alcohol and tobacco? We KNOW those are bad, we don't need any studies or Google or anything to know those two kill "a bunch" every year. Because they are grandfathered in they receive a pass? They are legal so they receive a pass but new substances are not?

Wait, didn't we ban alcohol once? How did that work out? I vaguely recall something about organized crime and shootouts and whatnot, so I'm guessing that "Prohibition" thing was a No Go?

We preach personal responsibility, but want the gov't to protect us from certain ills? Fair enough, so we're drawing the line at weed? Weed is the Tier 0, baseline, Rubicon we do not cross? The old stuff that kills you is cool, but the new stuff which may or may not isn't permitted?

For the children!
 
JBS said:
Adolescent usage ABSOLUTELY should enter the discussion.

It's also a studied phenomenon that open public discussion of marijuana as though it is safe, good as medicine, etc. leads to greater use (per widespread, controlled polling across the country) among juveniles.

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That is weird because this study which I have uploaded states the exact opposite. It states:

"When states consider proposals to allow the medical use of marijuana under state law, the
concern often arises that such laws might “send the wrong message,” and therefore, cause an
increase in marijuana use among young people. The available evidence strongly suggests that this
hypothesis is incorrect and that enactment of state medical marijuana laws has not increased
adolescent marijuana use. Consequently, legislators should evaluate medical marijuana proposals
based on their own merits — without regard for the speculative and unsupported assertions about
the bills sending the “wrong message.”
 

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TLDR20 said:
That is weird because this study which I have uploaded states the exact opposite. It states:

"When states consider proposals to allow the medical use of marijuana under state law, the
concern often arises that such laws might “send the wrong message,” and therefore, cause an
increase in marijuana use among young people. The available evidence strongly suggests that this
hypothesis is incorrect and that enactment of state medical marijuana laws has not increased
adolescent marijuana use. Consequently, legislators should evaluate medical marijuana proposals
based on their own merits — without regard for the speculative and unsupported assertions about
the bills sending the “wrong message.”
Click to expand...
I ll link to a study that showed the trends. Part of the study involved scientific polling and the sample was rather large if I recall correctly.

Your analogy on driving is a great one, except lacks full accounting for the enforcement aspect. Namely when we drive we are out in public, out on roads and therefore likely to be subjected to more rigorous enforcement of existing law. Legalization of marijuana is likely to increase possession, increase availability of the product and according to the scientific polling I've looked at is likely to increase use among teens and pre teens.

@Free: in most of my debates with anyone you'll see that I'm very much pro individual responsibility. My position on marijuana is based upon my conviction that making marijuana mainstream and socially acceptable among adults will ultimately have the unintended consequence of consumption by young minors- pre-teens and teens and ultimately (and this is key to me) contribute to the further decline of America. I truly believe that.

We're on the downslide as a nation anyway. Many people feel that way. Fewer people are adapting to the changing world and while other nations are investing in tech skills and apprenticeship programs, a huge number of American youth think they're going to come right out of school with a degree and "manage" something for $150k a year. The marijuana debate to me is another spoke in the wheel of our ever-weakening national identity and to me it will degrade the abilities of the next generation to compete. This is why-in part- I feel we need to consider how the weed debate is affecting the youth. Ignoring the fallout of what we do would be irresponsible.
 
I don't have the study in front of me, but use amongst youths declined in the Netherlands after legalization/lessened enforcement.
 
You can legalize, make illegal etc. if you come up "Hot" plan on losing your job. All does damage....pick your poison.
 
I think the number of MJ impared Drivers will go up, and alcohal impared drivers will go down as legalization increases.

Via the Drudgereport.com:

http://seattle.cbslocal.com/2014/02/04/study-fatal-car-crashes-involving-marijuana-have-tripled/

SEATTLE (CBS Seattle) – According to a recent study, fatal car crashes involving pot use have tripled in the U.S.
“Currently, one of nine drivers involved in fatal crashes would test positive for marijuana,” Dr. Guohua Li, director of the Center for Injury Epidemiology and Prevention at Columbia, and co-author of the study told HealthDay News.
Researchers from Columbia University’s Mailman School of Public Health gathered data from six states – California, Hawaii, Illinois, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, and West Virginia – that perform toxicology tests on drivers involved in fatal car accidents. This data included over 23,500 drivers that died within one hour of a crash between 1999 and 2010.
Li reported in the study that alcohol contributed to about 40 percent of traffic fatalities throughout the decade.
The researchers found that drugs played an increasing role in fatal traffic accidents. Drugged driving accounted for more than 28 percent of traffic deaths in 2010, which is 16 percent more than it was in 1999.
The researchers also found that marijuana was the main drug involved in the increase. It contributed to 12 percent of fatal crashes, compared to only 4 percent in 1999.
“If a driver is under the influence of alcohol, their risk of a fatal crash is 13 times higher than the risk of the driver who is not under the influence of alcohol,” Li said. “But if the driver is under the influence of both alcohol and marijuana, their risk increased to 24 times that of a sober person.”
Researchers found that the increase in marijuana use occurred across all ages for males and females.
Jonathan Adkins, deputy executive director of the Governors Highway Safety Association, told HealthDay News that marijuana impairs driving in much the same way that alcohol does.
“This study shows an alarming increase in driving under the influence of drugs, and, in particular, it shows an increase in driving under the influence of both alcohol and drugs,” Jan Withers, national president of Mothers Against Drunk Driving, added.
“MADD is concerned anytime we hear about an increase in impaired driving, since it’s 100 percent preventable,” Withers said. “When it comes to drugged driving versus drunk driving, the substances may be different but the consequences are the same – needless deaths and injuries.”
Adkins noted that the legalization of marijuana in some states makes these findings important to traffic safety officials.
“It’s a wake-up call for us in highway safety,” Adkins added. “The legalization of pot is going to spread to other states. It’s not even a partisan issue at this point. Our expectation is this will become the norm rather than the rarity.”
Li added that police do not have a test as accurate as the Breathalyzer to check a driver’s marijuana intoxication level.
“In the case of marijuana, I would say in maybe five years or more you will see some testing method or technique that may not as accurate as the Breathalyzer, but is more accurate than the testing devices we have today,” Li said.
The study was published online in the American Journal of Epidemiology.
 
I do see and smell a surprising amount of marijuana coming from cars as they are driving.
 
Another interesting tidbit, I'l let folks here decide if the American Lung Association is reputable or not:

http://www.lung.org/associations/states/colorado/tobacco/marijuana.html

What is Marijuana?

Marijuana is a drug made from the dry, shredded parts of the Cannabis sativa hemp plant. It is usually smoked in hand-rolled cigarettes called joints, in pipes, or in water pipes called bongs. It is also smoked in blunts, which are hollowed-out cigars filled with a mixture of tobacco and marijuana.

Marijuana contains a potent chemical called delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol, more commonly known as THC. It’s very similar to chemicals that the brain naturally produces, and disrupts the function of these chemicals in the brain.

Marijuana today is more potent than marijuana of past decades. For a long time THC levels averaged 2.3 percent. Today, average THC levels are higher than 8 percent and can go up to 35 percent in medical marijuana.


Can Marijuana Be Medicine?

While TCH has been approved by the FDA as a drug, the marijuana plant has not. This is because there’s no proof yet that the benefits outweigh the risks.


Tobacco vs. Marijuana

Like tobacco smoke, marijuana smoke contains cancer-causing chemicals. There are 33 cancer-causing chemicals contained in marijuana. Marijuana smoke also deposits tar into the lungs. In fact, when equal amounts of marijuana and tobacco are smoked, marijuana deposits four times as much tar into the lungs. This is because marijuana joints are un-filtered and often more deeply inhaled than cigarettes.

Marijuana smoke is also an irritant to the lungs, and frequent marijuana smokers can have many of the same respiratory problems experienced by people who smoke tobacco. These include coughing and phlegm production on most days, wheezing, bronchitis, and greater risk of lung infection.


Other Health Effects of Marijuana

Marijuana has many effects on the brain. It impairs short-term memory and motor coordination; slows reaction time; alters mood, judgment and decision-making; and in some people can cause severe anxiety or loss of touch with reality. Because of these effects, marijuana use more than doubles a driver’s risk of being in an accident.

Marijuana also affects the heart. The heart rate is raised 20-100 percent shortly after smoking, an effect which can last up to 3 hours and put users at an increased risk of heart attack.

Marijuana use can affect the general quality of the user’s life as well. Heavy marijuana users generally report lower life satisfaction, poorer mental and physical health, relationship problems and less academic and career success compared to their peers.


Youth and Marijuana

Marijuana use is particularly harmful to youth since the part of the brain that craves pleasure matures earlier than the area that controls our ability to understand risks and consequences. A national study by Monitoring the Future showed that in 2012 1.1% of 8th graders, 3.5% of 10th graders, and 6.5% of 12th graders reported using marijuana daily.

Marijuana is highly accessible, especially to older teenagers. In 2012, 37% of 8th graders, 69% of 10th graders, and 82% of 12th graders reported marijuana as being fairly easy or very easy to get. Studies show that as availability increases, perception of harm decreases.

The perception that there is no great risk in smoking marijuana is decreasing among youth. In 2012 66.9% of 8th graders, 50.9% of 10th graders and 44.1% of 12th graders said there was a great risk in smoking marijuana regularly. These numbers had been steadily declining over the last six years.


Is it Addictive?

Marijuana is often thought to not be addictive. However, marijuana dependence is the number 1 reason why youth in Colorado and the U.S. seek substance-abuse treatment. Youth are more likely than adults to become addicted to marijuana. About 4.5 million people in the U.S. meet clinical criteria for marijuana dependence.

THC stimulates brain cells to release the chemical dopamine, which creates a euphoric feeling and can lead to a physical addiction. Similar to tobacco withdrawal, people trying to quit marijuana report irritability, sleeping difficulties, craving, and anxiety.
 
You make it public a bunch of pipe hitters are guarding those places and no one is going to fuck around.
 
This is an amazing and balanced look at Marijuana. The only thing that I don't like about it is they portray smoking it as the main medical application when you have pills, edibles, injections, creams and transdermal patches. Despite that, I highly recommend taking the time to watch this.

 
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Is pot any worse then booze or cigs? Probably not, I can't say I've ever heard of a head on collision being caused by someone hitting the bong to hard. So the question should be asked if it's right for the government outlaw this substance while allowing other equally hazardous substance to be available?

There's consequences to excessive use of almost anything and I don't see the problem here. It will save us tons of money being thrown away in the "war on drugs". It will save the country billions a year not having people incarcerate over pot. It will save us billions a year in court costs and lawyer fees. You can sin tax the crap out of it. It will create loads of jobs through out the country creating a bigger tax base. It will take money out of the drug cartels hands and put it into legit business that will pay taxes.

The upside is so large compared to the downside. Never used the stuff and hate smoking with a passion. I drink so why should I throw stones at people that hit the bong?
 

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