Trayvon Martin Case

ke4gde said:
The court made their decision based on the evidence provided by the state. The state made the error as this was not a clear cut case of defense if taken beyond the context of the physical encounter (which the state tried to do). He created the exigent circumstances that required deadly force. That is the issue that the state chose to ignore and instead (just like the Casey Anthony case) go for the easy sexy charge that could not be proven. Being part of the neighborhood watch is irrelevant as it confers no authority to him. Again, I never questioned the justification for using deadly force, I questioned the events leading up to it where he created the circumstances necessary for it.
Click to expand...

I'm going to play Devils Advocate here and run this one up the flag pole.

Why was Zimmerman even there in the first place?

While there is NO concrete evidence Martin avoided Zimmerman and tried to go straight home, there is no concrete evidence Zimmerman "Created" the exigent circumstances. Go back and examine the FACT that Martin "KNEW" Zimmerman was watching him. How do we know know this? From Martin's own GF at the time who testified that Martin called Zimmerman a "Creepy Ass Cracker"

You have accusations of Zimmerman blowing off the instructions of the 911 dispatcher and actively pursuing Martin. And that's exactly that. ACCUSATIONS. No one, not you, me or the rest of the world, knows what happened.

And according to Zimmerman's testimony, which squares where the confrontation occurred and the struggle ensued and went down, it was back at the location of Zimmerman's truck.

You got a guy, who was already on suspension from school, didn't like the fact he was being "Eyeballed" and exhibited all the traits of being a Baby Gangster wannabe, was well on his way, now sizing up a smaller guy, he didn't like, that was watching him. Amplify that with an attitude, and what do you think is going to happen? He's going to make a point of letting him know exactly what Zimmerman represents and confront him.

Could Zimmerman have retreated? Possibly. Did Martin force the issue not knowing Zimmerman was armed? More than likely, based on the wounds Zimmerman received. Could Zimmerman's thought process have turned to the very same, we as officers, think about, anytime we go hands on with someone and it then, goes to the ground, with regards to our weapon, its retention and we're getting our ass kicked?

I will say this - if I honestly thought Zimmerman had it out for Martin, actively pursued him, shot him in the back or was a racist, I would say he should have paid for Martin's death with his life.

This is and was, just another example, of everyone from the media, to the DOJ, all the way up to the White House, that had everybody and their mothers brother, rushing to judgment, jumping to conclusions and grabbing at straws with accusations of racism, innuendo, hearsay, repeating fiction time and time again, and exacerbated to the point of the absurd.

Just some food for thought.
 
Centermass said:
I'm going to play Devils Advocate here and run this one up the flag pole.

Why was Zimmerman even there in the first place?

While there is NO concrete evidence Martin avoided Zimmerman and tried to go straight home, there is no concrete evidence Zimmerman "Created" the exigent circumstances. Go back and examine the FACT that Martin "KNEW" Zimmerman was watching him. How do we know know this? From Martin's own GF at the time who testified that Martin called Zimmerman a "Creepy Ass Cracker"
Click to expand...
It is correct that we have no evidence to support Martin avoiding Zimmerman. However, Martin knew Zimmerman was watching him after he got out of the car and followed him. Zimmerman only headed back for the car after he lost sight of Martin behind the row of houses. Zimmerman created the circumstances by getting out of his car to follow Martin. Had he not exited the car then there would have been no circumstances.
You have accusations of Zimmerman blowing off the instructions of the 911 dispatcher and actively pursuing Martin. And that's exactly that. ACCUSATIONS. No one, not you, me or the rest of the world, knows what happened.
Click to expand...
Not exactly, we know from the 911 tapes that he ignored the dispatchers instructions to not follow Martin. However, in either case this accusation is pointless as the dispatcher has no authority to give orders or to be followed. So it is immaterial to what occurred.
And according to Zimmerman's testimony, which squares where the confrontation occurred and the struggle ensued and went down, it was back at the location of Zimmerman's truck.
Click to expand...
Negative, the shooting and struggle occurred well away from his vehicle. This map and several others illustrate that Zimmerman had to follow Martin behind several houses where Zimmerman had no business being. Assuming Martin was actually heading home then he would have had a reason for being there. Was it illegal for Zimmerman to be there or follow Martin? Of course not, but just as we all know just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.
You got a guy, who was already on suspension from school, didn't like the fact he was being "Eyeballed" and exhibited all the traits of being a Baby Gangster wannabe, was well on his way, now sizing up a smaller guy, he didn't like, that was watching him. Amplify that with an attitude, and what do you think is going to happen? He's going to make a point of letting him know exactly what Zimmerman represents and confront him.
Click to expand...
You are probably right on this. In fact, I would say this is the most likely scenario as to what probably played out. He thought he was gonna be a tough guy and paid the price. Just to be clear, I am not justifying Martin's actions. I am pointing out that as the law abiding citizen, it was his responsibility to act responsibly and he didn't. Zimmerman took matters into his own hands and must now pay the consequences of his actions. Not consequences of the law as he was acquitted, but of what he created by getting out of that car in the first place.
Could Zimmerman have retreated? Possibly. Did Martin force the issue not knowing Zimmerman was armed? More than likely, based on the wounds Zimmerman received. Could Zimmerman's thought process have turned to the very same, we as officers, think about, anytime we go hands on with someone and it then, goes to the ground, with regards to our weapon, its retention and we're getting our ass kicked?
Click to expand...
If Zimmerman were an officer then I would completely agree with you. However, he was not an officer and had zero authority for putting hands on anyone (not that I am implying he initiated the physical confrontation). I will go further as to theorize that in all likelihood Zimmerman thought that since he was carrying a gun he could handle anything Martin could throw at him. You've got a guy who has failed at getting hired by an agency, has his concealed permit (within his rights to have of course), and was the Captain of his neighborhood watch.
I will say this - if I honestly thought Zimmerman had it out for Martin, actively pursued him, shot him in the back or was a racist, I would say he should have paid for Martin's death with his life.
Click to expand...
I am not saying that Zimmerman should have paid with his life or that there was any racial motivation involved. I think he got a case of hubris like we have all seen citizens get when they think the police aren't doing enough. How many times have you gotten the tough talk of "if ya'll don't take care of this I'ma gonna have to handle this mahself" line of talk? Even if the state wanted to go after him for creating the exigent circumstance, there are no specific laws on the books in Florida that reference that scenario. Having said that, if the scenario had been different, say Martin attacked Zimmerman while he was in his car trying to talk to 911, then it would be a completely different story with likely the same end result.
This is and was, just another example, of everyone from the media, to the DOJ, all the way up to the White House, that had everybody and their mothers brother, rushing to judgment, jumping to conclusions and grabbing at straws with accusations of racism, innuendo, hearsay, repeating fiction time and time again, and exacerbated to the point of the absurd.

Just some food for thought.
Click to expand...
Agreed. We are seeing history repeat itself on that score many times over. Now, in this case we have had a trial with evidence present so we can get a sharper image of what happened. Thanks for the devils advocate though. It is good to keep the mind sharp.:thumbsup:
 
Centermass said:
Could Zimmerman's thought process have turned to the very same, we as officers, think about, anytime we go hands on with someone and it then, goes to the ground, with regards to our weapon, its retention and we're getting our ass kicked?
Click to expand...

ke4gde said:
If Zimmerman were an officer then I would completely agree with you. However, he was not an officer and had zero authority for putting hands on anyone (not that I am implying he initiated the physical confrontation).
Click to expand...

Since when, does Law Enforcement, have an exclusive right to this mindset? They don't. And for you to say in the same sentence even though "He was not an officer and had zero authority for putting hands on anyone (not that I am implying he initiated the physical confrontation)" yeah, you just did. That's pretty much the same as if you had stated he had to have an officer's authority in order to defend himself.
 
Centermass said:
Since when, does Law Enforcement, have an exclusive right to this mindset? They don't. And for you to say in the same sentence even though "He was not an officer and had zero authority for putting hands on anyone (not that I am implying he initiated the physical confrontation)" yeah, you just did. That's pretty much the same as if you had stated he had to have an officer's authority in order to defend himself.
Click to expand...
That is not what I said. You stated "we as officers, think about, anytime we go hands on with someone" the way you wrote it implies that Zimmerman has the same thought processes as an officer when touching someone. He does not. Part of an officer's authority for going hands on is his authority conferred onto him by law to go hands on. Zimmerman has no such authority so it cannot legitimately be in his thought process unless he intended to put his hands on someone. He can have the same mindset for self defense surely. He does not need to be an officer to defend himself, however, he damn well better be one if he is going to follow someone, at night, behind several houses, after having gotten off the phone with 911 having made the statements that he did (ie.. they always get away).

In addition, I did not imply he initiated the confrontation as my disclaimer stated. That statement was to reinforce what I wrote previous. However, he initiated the series of events that lead to the physical confrontation. Let me restate, he got out of his car and followed Martin before he lost him and turned back. This is not a clear cut case of self defense as compared to other self defense cases involving officers or citizens. Until the point Martin ambushed Zimmerman, Martin had not technically done anything wrong or made poor choices with regards to this encounter. However, poor choices were abundant by Zimmerman until the ambush, at which point the story flipped and now Zimmerman was in a situation of having to defend himself.
 
Last edited:
I need to find the link, but the current shooter's neighbors say he's a fucking nutter, too. Sounds to me like he won't rest until Zimmerman is dead.
 
pardus said:
Man Says He Shot at George Zimmerman In Self-Defense

Smart and predictable defense. With a witness to back it up and a personal feud going on. I wonder if the shooter was black?

ETA: Nope.

Apparently the shooter called 911 on a previous occasion when Zimmerman allegedly threatened him.

http://heavy.com/news/2015/05/matthew-apperson-george-zimmerman-shooting-suspect/
Click to expand...
Local station here said he was behind Zimmerman doing the "Road Rage" thing then he shot into the vehicle (Zimmerman was not shot, but cut by flying glass per our local info babe).

If true then the neighbor gets to visit a local detention facility for a bit.
 
I am surprised that Zimmerman did not return fire. Zimmerman had plenty of cause to return fire in defense of his life. I wonder what stopped him?
 
Red Flag 1 said:
I am surprised that Zimmerman did not return fire. Zimmerman had plenty of cause to return fire in defense of his life. I wonder what stopped him?
Click to expand...

Probably terrified of going through another court case again.
I'd say this is the smartest decision he's made in a long time.
 
pardus said:
Probably terrified of going through another court case again.
I'd say this is the smartest decision he's made in a long time.
Click to expand...

It was the smart move to not return fire. If he had, there would have been lead flying until one was dead, or unable to fire. Still, the lad seems to be a magnet for press and LEO encounters, and the cycle just keeps going.
 
Red Flag 1 said:
It was the smart move to not return fire. If he had, there would have been lead flying until one was dead, or unable to fire. Still, the lad seems to be a magnet for press and LEO encounters, and the cycle just keeps going.
Click to expand...
Will never stop because anything he does will generate news coverage.
 
Z's reputation around town is for being a hothead (shocking). If he didn't return fire my first inclination is to think some circumstances intervened rather than him making the right decision. Time will tell though.
 
To put Zimmerman into perspective, the Orlando Sentinel has a "George Zimmerman" news section to go with Sports, Weather, Breaking News...

Anyway, this gem posted today:

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...hew-apperson-bond-hearing-20150529-story.html

SANFORD — The man accused of shooting at George Zimmerman will use a "stand your ground" defense in an attempt to clear himself, his lawyer said Friday..

"That's a good look into the future," said Michael Lafay moments after a bond hearing for his client, Matthew Apperson, a 36-year-old Winter Springs man accused of firing into Zimmerman's pickup May 11 as they traveled in separate vehicles down West Lake Mary Boulevard.

George Zimmerman's lawyer, Don West combats allegations that Matthew Apperson was acting out of self-defense.

"And, of course, as you know," Lafay said, "Mr. Zimmerman is no stranger to a 'stand your ground' situation."
Click to expand...

I won't apologize, the bold text has me laughing. Nicely done, Mr. Lafay.
 
Freefalling said:
To put Zimmerman into perspective, the Orlando Sentinel has a "George Zimmerman" news section to go with Sports, Weather, Breaking News...

Anyway, this gem posted today:

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...hew-apperson-bond-hearing-20150529-story.html



I won't apologize, the bold text has me laughing. Nicely done, Mr. Lafay.
Click to expand...


I love to laugh at stuff like this, because it is so ridiculous, but then I realize that people, people with power, will go along with this train of thought, and back it with legal authority. That is when I thank the Spaghetti Monster for his gift of alcohol, and I float away in a haze of alcoholic bliss...
 

Similar threads

RackMaster
Canadian Forces brass defying federal directive to boost reserves
Replies
5
Views
1K
pardus
pardus
Gypsy
AAR, Gen McCaffrey (Ret)
Replies
1
Views
2K
Paddlefoot
Paddlefoot
Back
Top