According to this report, he's one those.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/21/us-france-shootings-afghanistan-idUSBRE82K0OO20120321
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/21/us-france-shootings-afghanistan-idUSBRE82K0OO20120321
Two soldiers shot dead in south-west France
- Thread starter Crusader74
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Nice to know he was on a watch list; too bad he wasn't arrested before killing people.
Uhm.... as usual... unfortunately....
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There are far too many people on watch lists for them to be all monitored 24/7, unfortunately. At the same time you can't just arrest them all and put them in a camp or something either, if they haven't actually committed a crime yet.
That's the problem. If you've got a clean record, you can get away with anything until it's too late. These are some of the the most dangerous types of extremists we face today, because of the sheer number of them.
you get put on a watch list for openly anti-US banter
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The raid's going down now.
Edit: I know all too well the tactics they use and they will put themselves at risk to take him alive if at all possible (much more so than tac teams from most other countries would). I hope everyone gets out alright.
Edit: I know all too well the tactics they use and they will put themselves at risk to take him alive if at all possible (much more so than tac teams from most other countries would). I hope everyone gets out alright.
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For now the intervention team is trying to wear the guy down and corner him in the apartment (I believe they've blown-in his door as well as parts of the walls). They still want to try and get him to surrender. He's not a real martyr and he claims he doesn't want to die, but at the same time he isn't giving himself up... so they're just trying to wear him down. Hopefully he really isn't hardcore enough to take this to the final option, and the intimidation tactics will work.
Grenades work wonders, they should just whack him and be done with it all.
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Obviously, but also obviously not if you want him to stand trial, which is what they're hoping for. I'm not sure if I want to see him dead or if I want to see him face his actions in court. Wanting to see him in a bodybag is kind of my base instinct, but on the other hand I also want to see him answer for his crimes.
Edit: but mostly I just don't want him to become a martyr for his cause.
L&G I introduce you Mohamed Merah
Merah Mohammed, the alleged killer of Toulouse, is a "nomadic jihad." His movements correspond to the same state of mind of a terrorist by the "gentle way" but able to shoot the children. The "nomadic jihad 'is a category in which you indicate items that have shallow roots and are capable of doing many times the path Europe / Afghanistan in search of their mission. Travel who do not often have great support. Travel often tortuous via Turkey and Iran.
Merah Mohammed, the alleged killer of Toulouse, is a "nomadic jihad." His movements correspond to the same state of mind of a terrorist by the "gentle way" but able to shoot the children. The "nomadic jihad 'is a category in which you indicate items that have shallow roots and are capable of doing many times the path Europe / Afghanistan in search of their mission. Travel who do not often have great support. Travel often tortuous via Turkey and Iran.
Police officers raided the suspect who responded by shooting and then jumping out of the window. Zero police officers killed, 2 wounded.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/22/world/europe/france-shooting/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/22/world/europe/france-shooting/index.html
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The intimidation tactics weren't wearing him down fast enough, so there was only one option left. The tac team started moving into the flat, being careful to avoid boobytraps, but couldn't see him at first. They then arrived near the bathroom and he came out firing long, continuous bursts with an AK. In this violent assault, he kept firing bursts as he moved towards the windows. He was shot by snipers as he jumped out of a window while still firing. He was dead when he hit the ground.
This guy was a bonafide fucking psychopath who received a lot of training in Afghanistan and Pakistan. This was a lot more intense than your usual barricaded suspect scenario. A lot of respect to those guys who did everything they could to get him alive, including putting themselves at considerable risk, just so he wouldn't be a martyr. Alas, he changed his mind and decided he really wanted to die and that was it.
He got what he wanted, but at least there won't be a lengthy, costly trial/media circus. The victims' families will have some closure too.
This guy was a bonafide fucking psychopath who received a lot of training in Afghanistan and Pakistan. This was a lot more intense than your usual barricaded suspect scenario. A lot of respect to those guys who did everything they could to get him alive, including putting themselves at considerable risk, just so he wouldn't be a martyr. Alas, he changed his mind and decided he really wanted to die and that was it.
He got what he wanted, but at least there won't be a lengthy, costly trial/media circus. The victims' families will have some closure too.
I don't think he changed his mind, he just played them so he was in control of the situation. The assault meant he lost control, so he came out shooting (thereby gaining a modicum of control).
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He was offered a generous window of opportunity to surrender himself and everything was done to try and take him alive. That doesn't mean he was in control of the situation; on the contrary, it was the police who was offering him that choice. There was a time frame for the different stages of the operation and his indecisions (or if you believe them to be manipulations) didn't alter it.
I don't believe he was actively trying to manipulate anyone either. The psych evaluation shows that he was very unstable. He wasn't a fully committed terrorist; intelligence suggests that he refused to take on a suicide bombing mission because he didn't want to die for the cause, so he accepted a more 'general' mission instead. I can honestly believe that during the first half of the siege, he really was battling between being a 24-year-old kid who wanted to live and the brainwashing which was telling him to go down fighting. He was willing to murder in cold blood but he was a lot less willing to die himself. Eventually he must have reasoned that spending his life in prison would be worse than a final attempt to deal some carnage.
The psychology behind this guy is mind-blowing and I'd give anything to be down there right now studying his case in detail. There'll be a lot more information coming out soon, and I think it'll show even more how fucked up he was.
Rapid, how much of what he did to you believe was a result of training?
Although I'm with you on how conflicted he must have been, I also believe when faced with the demands of making a decision to act, one will resort to how they were trained.
I read these articles and entries with interest. From what I see, there was behavior consistent with training that led him on this path.
For instance, many in the public have the idea that this guy just walked around with a gun and happened to have shot paratroopers- likening to one of those typical workplace shootings, where the employee flips out. Not the case. The hits were planned methodically. Note:
This young kid was one of the handful of somewhat hardened AQ, most of which have been rolled up by SOF; he had his life only because he was fortunate[sic] enough to have been locked up all this time, and then repatriated to a Western nation.
Although I'm with you on how conflicted he must have been, I also believe when faced with the demands of making a decision to act, one will resort to how they were trained.
I read these articles and entries with interest. From what I see, there was behavior consistent with training that led him on this path.
For instance, many in the public have the idea that this guy just walked around with a gun and happened to have shot paratroopers- likening to one of those typical workplace shootings, where the employee flips out. Not the case. The hits were planned methodically. Note:
In the case of taking out paratroopers, these were not exactly "soft" targets. In the latter case, head shots imply either execution style killings or a measure of efficacy with marksmanship. Don't want to read too far into it, but these are my observations. And I think when faced with the panic instinct and the prospect of being stormed, his training kicked in.
This young kid was one of the handful of somewhat hardened AQ, most of which have been rolled up by SOF; he had his life only because he was fortunate[sic] enough to have been locked up all this time, and then repatriated to a Western nation.
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Yeah, I'm quite aware that he was very organised and methodological. However, he went to Afghan/Pakistan of his own accord (he didn't use the traditional 'networks' to get people there -- also a shame, because he would've probably been caught due to the way they are watched) and had his own plans -- he wasn't interested in becoming a martyr and that's why he turned down the suicide bombing mission. He was a psychopath who wanted to kill, but was not so keen on the idea of dying himself. He wanted to learn how to kill with weapons effectively, which is presumably why he tried to join the French army and the FFL (he was turned down because of his criminal record) long before he turned to extremism.
I really don't think he was hardened AQ at all, and there are even conflicting reports as to whether he was ever imprisoned in Afghanistan or not. I don't think they managed to turn him. He had an incredible ability to compartmentalise himself, so he was probably able to just focus on the combat training while he was there. There's no doubt he 'turned' towards Islamic extremism, but I think he chose to do that himself. I don't think they managed to turn him into 'one of those guys'... either way it doesn't really matter though, because they got a result out of him.
By the way, the video you posted is a fake. It depicts a completely separate incident which happened in Canada: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...om-balcony-after-being-tasered-by-police.html
Oh, wow, thanks. I never bothered to see if that was a legit video.
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No worries. Real footage might not be made public for a while (if at all -- depends on how they can use it for political gain during the elections).
By the way, there's a document, a sort of guide to recruiting the perfect mujahideen, which circulates on jihadist websites. Its author explains why the best new recruits are non-religious. "They're the ones who should be preferred because there are so many of them, especially amongst young people, and they are the safest". The priority for recruiting people into jihadist groups is targeting those who do not show any particular piety, as they are the most discreet.
The more religious they are, then the more visible they are too, thus they are not targeted as a priority. There is also a great distrust of Salafi circles (the super religious) because, paradoxically, many of these environments are non-violent, and some of the biggest critics of al-Qaeda and other jihadists are found there of all places.
This is why there have been many cases of fighters who were asked to take part in a suicide mission, and who responded 'yes' to the mission but 'no' to the suicide. Lots of these guys just aren't as religious as many people believe; they mostly just want to kill some Westerners out of hate and propaganda. They aren't necessarily willing to die so easily though, which is why I believe Merah was really deliberating about it.
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