United States & Gun Control discussion.

Something else that disturbs me about all of this, bad enough that we're ignoring our own history, that we're playing into fear and making emotional decisions, and that no one knows how to make a ban work without infringing upon other rights, but even worse than all that (which is pretty damn scary)?

The outcome s more or less ordained. This is a complex issue and all of the talk is "ban guns/ ban assault weapons". It isn't "Okay, guns are a problem but we also need to address security in general, this country's mental health problems, what's wrong in society that is making people do this..." Nah, the answer is so very simple!

Ban guns. There. Problem solved. That's the only end state.

How could a remotely logical person of any political flavor be comfortable with this?
 
I'm not taking anything you say as disrepectful JAB and the same goes for Worldweave and I would fully expect you to disagree with what I will say and look forward to your response. I think we are having a great discussion even if we disagree on the issue. At least we can all think about the issue from different perspectives.

I especially agree with your police response part. The 4c's were the pre-Columbine response and that has changed post Columbine.

To add a little bit to my previous post and try to answer one of your questions. Why barricading classrooms in a better solution. With electronic doors and electronic door stops you could setup all the schools doors to be shut an locked almost instantly from the classroom or the administration area so you could take decisive action to lock down the whole school whether people realized there is a problem or not. You would setup an emergency switch similar to a fire alarm that would cause all doors to shut and lock.

Why is that a better solution and to try an answer why it's not a good idea to arm teachers? Look at El Al Air. The Isreali's have never had a hijacked plane because they don't allow the bad guys to get into the cockpit. The same type of principle applies to school. You protect the children by not letting the bad guys get to the children. After 9/11 the US airlines took similar action with locking the cockpit. The Isreali's do it better but we are still good. The Isreali's also don't arm there pilots. In the US we arm our pilots. Of those armed pilots they have never used a weapon to defend the cockpit but we have had a cockpit shooting incident when a pilot accidently discharged there weapon and put a hole in the cockpit wall and luckily it didn't hit anyone or a critical system and it was at a low altitude so there wasn't a decompression issue. The lesson here is accidents can happen especially with the lightly trained people carrying. That doesn't mean I don't believe in CCW laws. I just think it's different carrying in the work enviroment and carrying personally.
http://articles.cnn.com/2008-03-26/us/pilot.gun_1_federal-flight-deck-officer-pilot-cockpit?_s=PM:US


The problem with having an armed teacher is if they are engaging the bad guy, who is managing their 30 kids? The other problem with an armed teacher is when the police arrive and are trying to find a bad guy they might have to engage a teacher searching for the bad guy or possibly in a gun fight with the bad guy. Either way an armed teacher can at best slow down the polices response and potentially put the teacher and police officer at greater risk. You can say well that armed teacher might have already ended the situation before the police got there and a just as likely outcome is the bad guy gets the teacher and now said bad guy has more guns and ammo then they brought to begin with.

I dont disagree with turning a school building and all classrooms into essentially a large "panic room" like your talking about Scotth. As long as it was done covertly. I refuse to have my children or childrens children go to school in a prison. You know I'd even sign a petition to support a tax to pay for something like that. My only real issue with it is then what happens to school athletics, athletic events, recess, physical education, FIELD TRIPS...you get my point. Do we surround our school yards with 20ft barb wire fences or brick walls? I could never back that idea. It only leads me back to the same two solutions most SS memebers and EVERY single person I've spoken with keep saying, take away gun free zones and allow anyone to include teachers to carry. Yes, I'm from Texas FWTW....;-)
 
The problem with having an armed teacher is if they are engaging the bad guy, who is managing their 30 kids? The other problem with an armed teacher is when the police arrive and are trying to find a bad guy they might have to engage a teacher searching for the bad guy or possibly in a gun fight with the bad guy. Either way an armed teacher can at best slow down the polices response and potentially put the teacher and police officer at greater risk. You can say well that armed teacher might have already ended the situation before the police got there and a just as likely outcome is the bad guy gets the teacher and now said bad guy has more guns and ammo then they brought to begin with.

There is always a risk of blue-on-blue when off-duty or plainclothes cops or armed civilians engage a goblin (hat tip to COL Cooper). However, by the logic expressed above no one should intervene in such a situation. The evidence directly contradicts that. There are documented instances of a single responder effectively stopping the violence. We know that many of these active killer types will kill themselves as soon as some pressure is applied, and we also know that introducing even one responder changes their focus. Both of these are good things.
 
I'm talking about giving them the right to carry, obviously this would carry with it mandatory quals and training. Maybe you're right about military training but I don't think LEO are much better, talk about only shooting paper targets. As i've heard from police officers, their range time is few and far between and mainly for keeping qualifications up to date. If we say that individuals have a right to concealed carry, shouldn't teachers have that ability also? These should be responsible adults, a lot more responsible than the ones getting fingerprinted and a card.

Obviously this has holes, just like waiting for the police for 3-5 min, after an active shooter presents a threat, has holes. I think we agree that taking guns away from everyday people isn't going to do much good and, short of having funds for a squad sized security force, this seems like the most feasible alternative. Once again we're not talking about putting guns in the hands of every teacher, only those that maintain their qualifications and have a desire and ability to put down a threat if it comes to that. As you said, I'm all for reinforced doors that automatically lock and "safe rooms", this would be a secondary security measure, to have weapons posted in certain rooms that would only be accessed in emergency threat situations by certain individuals.

I've found that often when discussing things like this, there is a detectable bias in our opinions. That is to say, for example, that because I am a veteran I can extrapolate my experience and training to other veterans. The converse bias is rarely seen, because it is often less flattering.

When we look at this subject and try to determine who best to protect our children in school I think we have to be careful to avoid this bias. I would trust most vets on this site with a gun around my child, but the population of this site allows me to accurately correlate military experience with skill at arms. Clearly, a Special Forces Soldier, or a Ranger, ad nauseum, is qualified to protect school kids whilst armed. However, that confidence does not extend to everyone who has worn the uniform because someone like a 68-series biomedical equipment tech is not a gunfighter.

So, I support the use of certain former military personnel within specific CMFs to provide armed security in schools.

You're also dead on about the lack of emphasis placed on firearms training in many police departments. To illustrate the problem, I'll use standards I'm very familiar with for no particular reason whatsoever :-"

Agency A has two separate firearms standards. The first is the state standard, which requires one annual qualification with a pistol. That's a whopping 8 hours--minues lunch and breaks--of firearms training per annum. This standard is applied to all personnel other than SWAT.

SWAT shoots a pistol qualification twice monthly with a mandatory score over 90% to stay on the team, and rifle/shotgun quals at least quarterly with similarly high standards (everyone exceeds the standard).

I do not think mythical Agency A's standards are outside the norm for police departments throughout the nation. I know for a fact some have higher standards and shoot more frequently, but I would wager the majority do not. So, you're right...police pistol training (at least in-service requalifications) is not terribly high-speed.

With that said, armed security are much worse. I could tell you the state standard here, but it amounts to have pulse + hit broad side of brightly painted barn = good for 5 years with no additional training needed.

For a few reasons, if we are to invest in placing armed men and women in our schools, these people should be commissioned law enforcement officers. Speaking generally (and yes, I know there are exceptions), the vetting of law enforcement personnel is much more stringent than private security. Likewise, the initial and ongoing training. The police in this country are generally equipped well, and have a direct line to more police who will respond at Warp Gazillion to help kids and a brother who is under fire.

More importantly, they have statutory authority to act, and have immunities that teachers and private security do not.

None of this, by the way, negates the potential value of allowing willing, self-identified, trained teachers to carry concealed pistols if they choose to do so.
 
You have a good point... I've actually been told that I can NOT perform CPR on a student... I told them they would have to fire me after I came to the aid of one of my students because I wasn't going to stand by and watch them die. I fully expected them to fire me right there just for defying them.


That makes no sense for them to tell you that, I would think they would be more liable for not doing anything if one of your students needed CPR, especially since you are CPR qualified...Not to divert the thread, but are there Defibrillators or first aid kids around? Sounds like they're setting themselves up for failure here.:thumbsdown:
 
How many teachers faced that, 5 - 10 maybe? Hardly a significant number. We might be all surprised by how many teachers want to be armed, but Im pretty sure most won't want them. That said, if any of them want them I'm all for it.

How many pilots ended up being armed?

If the principal and psychologist had the balls to take this turd on unarmed, imagine how many they could've saved had they been armed.

I'm not taking anything you say as disrepectful JAB and the same goes for Worldweave and I would fully expect you to disagree with what I will say and look forward to your response. I think we are having a great discussion even if we disagree on the issue. At least we can all think about the issue from different perspectives.

I especially agree with your police response part. The 4c's were the pre-Columbine response and that has changed post Columbine.

To add a little bit to my previous post and try to answer one of your questions. Why barricading classrooms in a better solution. With electronic doors and electronic door stops you could setup all the schools doors to be shut an locked almost instantly from the classroom or the administration area so you could take decisive action to lock down the whole school whether people realized there is a problem or not. You would setup an emergency switch similar to a fire alarm that would cause all doors to shut and lock.

Why is that a better solution and to try an answer why it's not a good idea to arm teachers? Look at El Al Air. The Isreali's have never had a hijacked plane because they don't allow the bad guys to get into the cockpit. The same type of principle applies to school. You protect the children by not letting the bad guys get to the children. After 9/11 the US airlines took similar action with locking the cockpit. The Isreali's do it better but we are still good. The Isreali's also don't arm there pilots. In the US we arm our pilots. Of those armed pilots they have never used a weapon to defend the cockpit but we have had a cockpit shooting incident when a pilot accidently discharged there weapon and put a hole in the cockpit wall and luckily it didn't hit anyone or a critical system and it was at a low altitude so there wasn't a decompression issue. The lesson here is accidents can happen especially with the lightly trained people carrying. That doesn't mean I don't believe in CCW laws. I just think it's different carrying in the work enviroment and carrying personally.
http://articles.cnn.com/2008-03-26/us/pilot.gun_1_federal-flight-deck-officer-pilot-cockpit?_s=PM:US


The problem with having an armed teacher is if they are engaging the bad guy, who is managing their 30 kids? The other problem with an armed teacher is when the police arrive and are trying to find a bad guy they might have to engage a teacher searching for the bad guy or possibly in a gun fight with the bad guy. Either way an armed teacher can at best slow down the polices response and potentially put the teacher and police officer at greater risk. You can say well that armed teacher might have already ended the situation before the police got there and a just as likely outcome is the bad guy gets the teacher and now said bad guy has more guns and ammo then they brought to begin with.

As I understand it, Israel allows their teachers to be armed. At least the photos I see on the web seem to show that.
 
I've found that often when discussing things like this, there is a detectable bias in our opinions. That is to say, for example, that because I am a veteran I can extrapolate my experience and training to other veterans. The converse bias is rarely seen, because it is often less flattering. <clipped for size>

Nice set of post and you bring a valuable perspective to the discussion.:thumbsup:
 
If the principal and psychologist had the balls to take this turd on unarmed, imagine how many they could've saved had they been armed.

Really great point. An unarmed hero, no matter how noble or courageous, can get only so far trying to rush an armed attacker.



As I understand it, Israel allows their teachers to be armed. At least the photos I see on the web seem to show that.

Even their truck drivers (Zim trucking, container, and logistics) range anywhere from armed to heavily armed. This is a publicized point in many parts of the world where you'd want it publicized. They simply refuse to be victims, or to be percieved as "soft" targets.
 
Get Ready, here it comes...

"It's a complex problem that requires more than one solution," Carney said Tuesday. "It calls for not only re-examining our gun laws and how well we enforce them, but also for engaging mental health professionals, law-enforcement officials, educators, parents and communities to find those solutions."
Still, much of the immediate focus after the shooting is on gun control, an issue that has been dormant in Washington for years. Obama expended little political capital on gun issues during his first term, despite several mass shootings, including a movie theater attack in Aurora, Colorado, in the midst of this year's presidential campaign.
The White House has begun to signal that Obama may be more proactive on gun issues following the murders of the elementary school youngsters, ages 6 and 7.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...-biden-to-create-new-policies-in-wake-school/

Biden in charge of the gun control effort. My expectation is that this will be an effort with nominal nods at other issues and a huge emphasis on gun control. At the end of the day, expect broad language that can be interpreted loosely in order to erode the second amendment a bit at a time.

I'm clinging to my guns...
 
I and everyone I know is set for this. It's about to get real... vocal.
 
Obama couldn't do anything in Term 1 because of the health care bill; he shot his wad there. Term 2 with nothing to lose? Fiscal cliff...whether you believe that or not the fact remains our economy and country's finances are in the toilet. Afghanistan? Pull out in 2014, "everyone's" coming home, right? Unrest in the Middle East/ Iran/ Israel? Back burner until we can revamp our cabinet.

I think it is perfectly normal to focus on gun control rather than facing the real issues which impact every single American. :rolleyes:

While the president is in a bit of a no-win situation(He doesn't care about our kids!/ He doesn't care about our country!), putting Biden on this is a smart move. It allows Obama to do something without being the point man. A) If it backfires it flushes Joe's chances in 2016 down the drain, B) If it works BO can take the credit for "his" policy, and C) I'd like to believe that BO will let Biden run amok so BO can actually try to run this country (into the ground, but that's another thread).

Maybe, just maybe, Biden will dick this one up.
 
Obama couldn't do anything in Term 1 because of the health care bill; he shot his wad there. Term 2 with nothing to lose? Fiscal cliff...whether you believe that or not the fact remains our economy and country's finances are in the toilet.

Obama has no desire to avert a fiscal cliff. The Conservatives will either cave, and he will tax the rich more heavily, or they will hold fast, and the fiscal cliff will arrive- taxing the rich more heavily- and plunge us into a very deep recession, and probably worse.

His fundamental ideology all his adult life has been that Capitalism is inherently bad. He and those he associates with have always wanted to implode the capitalistic American economy, regardless of the depth and breadth of the disaster it would cause globally, just so they can recreate a totally new type of economy that is more "socially just", i.e., lacking a wealthy tier. It's another flavor of Marxism, but with new lessons picked up from recent (past 2 decades) Chinese adjustments. I've been saying it since his first campaign began, including a few threads on the board that were met with eyes rolling and silly "secret society" babble. Gun control is just another stop along the way to "transforming America".

Maybe, just maybe, Biden will dick this one up.
Biden is going to be flanked by 20 or more advisers that we'll never see. This has been prepped well in advance, just as the Health Care Bill - more than 1,000 pages- came flying in from out of nowhere, already double spaced and neatly prepared in flawless legal language. We've been outmaneuvered.
 
1) carry permits for veterans & retired first responders
2) rethink how we deal with mentally challenged people
3) rethink how we deal with criminals
4) rethink how media reports
For starters
 
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