United States & Gun Control discussion.

I think the burden of liability for making sure someone is safe or trained should fall upon the person selling or making the firearm accessible. Background checks and "licences" are stupid and a waste of time IMHO. A convicted felon is not buying at the gun store for his next illegal act.

Contrary to most on here, I really don't care if convicted felons have guns. I think if the person has been set free and returned to society, they should have their rights restored.

The gang banger, thug, sketchy looking person I already expect to be armed, if they are armed legally or illegally really doesn't matter.
 
Is it an affront to civil liberties that you need to get a license before you can legally drive a car? After all, it's practically essential to exercise freedom of movement in this day and age.

Have gun owners been hurt by the compulsory tests for concealed carry permits? If not, then why would it be wrong to develop a 'lite' version of such tests -- intended for basic gun ownership?

I suspect that opponents of this idea are mostly worried about the methods for implementing it (i.e., the introduction of gun licenses could be used to develop some kind of registry to keep track of 'dangerous' people). But putting all those concerns aside, you have to admit that it makes SENSE to ask people to prove that they have a minimum level of proficiency and knowledge before they can wield something incredibly lethal. You don't join the military and get a loaded weapon on day one... You have to prove that, at the very least, you're not a total tard.

The question isn't if there should be some kind of test, IMO. The question is how to implement it without the possibility that it could be used against gun owners in the future.

That's a much deeper issue, and I don't claim that there's a way to do it (nor do I claim that there isn't a way to do it -- I simply don't have the time to think about it long enough).

I do not have a CCW in the state I live due to the unnecessary, difficult and time restrictions on doing so, and I can legally carry in something like 45 states in the US with a legal CCW.
I am a person who carried a firearm openly for the state govt here, and is both a military and NRA firearms instructor.
So yes Ive been hurt, because I cannot carry without being subjected to a 8-12mth process of digging into my ass unnecessarily as a law abiding citizen, who is also authorised to carry a firearm as part of my job.
Unlike a drivers license, the possession of firearms is an un-infringable RIGHT in this country (or supposed to be at least).

For the record, I'm not opposed to people having to do something reasonable/testable in order to posses a firearm but that is beside the point as it is a RIGHT.
 
@pardus beat me to it.

People often use a driver's license in an attempt to create a corollary to gun licenses, but the effort fails. A driver's license is a privilege; it is not a right. There are many,many other ways to travel--even long-distance--without a driver's license.

Conversely, owning and bearing arms is a right enshrined in the Constitution of these United States. There is no comparable means of self-defense; there is no method as effective for preventing tyranny as an armed populace. That is why the right to keep and bear arms was enshrined in one of the foundational documents of this nation. There is a huge difference between the two.

Other countries may hold a different view as a result of cultural differences. Canada, for instance. But the fact remains that licensing/registration is a pathway towards confiscation.

We do not ask people to prove competency--or even eligibility!!--to vote. I would argue that the exercise of power by the electorate is exponentially more dangerous than a man with a gun.
 
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Contrary to most on here, I really don't care if convicted felons have guns. I think if the person has been set free and returned to society, they should have their rights restored.

The gang banger, thug, sketchy looking person I already expect to be armed, if they are armed legally or illegally really doesn't matter.

I disagree (big surprise). The prison system is so backed up that people that should NEVER be back on the streets are making parole. They are returning to their old ways at very high rates. Why make it easy for them to get a gun and commit new crimes? Granted, it isn't that hard now, but why make it easier? If felons were allowed to have guns, the statistics on crimes committed by people carrying legally would go through the roof and give the gun control crowd an inflammatory excuse to take away all guns, including yours and mine...
 
I do not have a CCW in the state I live due to the unnecessary, difficult and time restrictions on doing so, and I can legally carry in something like 45 states in the US with a legal CCW.
I am a person who carried a firearm openly for the state govt here, and is both a military and NRA firearms instructor.
So yes Ive been hurt, because I cannot carry without being subjected to a 8-12mth process of digging into my ass unnecessarily as a law abiding citizen, who is also authorised to carry a firearm as part of my job.
Unlike a drivers license, the possession of firearms is an un-infringable RIGHT in this country (or supposed to be at least).

For the record, I'm not opposed to people having to do something reasonable/testable in order to posses a firearm but that is beside the point as it is a RIGHT.

Agree 100%. The drivers' license/gun license comparison is a complete fallacy, because as you noted the latter is a Constitutional right and the former is not.

My marriage license is good in every state. My drivers' license is good in every state. My right to vote is good in every state. Why isn't my right to keep and bear arms good in every state? Why isn't there a nationally-recognize CCW permit? State-level permits have become de facto gun control because they are so time-consuming, expensive, and onerous to obtain, especially up north.
 
Automobiles weren't really a thing back when they were drafting the Constitution... or there'd probably be something in there about them, too. I don't think cars are comparable with other forms of transport (planes, trains, buses, etc), as you're entirely dependent on someone else in the case of the latter. It's a bit like saying the police can protect you with firearms, so you don't need one yourself. It sometimes works (e.g., UK) but it's pretty damn flawed.

As to the points that have been brought up -- of course, I'm sure there are states where loads of bullshit bureaucratic procedures have hurt gun owners. That doesn't mean they need to be kept -- on the contrary, they should be gotten rid of. Some kind of nationally-recognised permit seems like a good idea too, at the very least.

Basically, forget all the stupid shit that exists today -- try to work towards a brand new, sensible, nationwide system. Gun ownership should remain a right, not a privilege, but all rights come with responsibilities, and no single right has ever been unlimited. So, if just once in your life, you need to show some basic competency with a firearm, to prove that you're not a tard, then IMO, that can only be a benefit to gun owners (provided the system is set up so the government can't abuse it).

In practice, many efforts have been really stupid and have just been a guise to restrict ownership rights. But in theory, it makes sense to work towards a better system. Usually, it's anti-gun crowd who work towards such systems and regulations -- hence why they blow. And that's why I think it's down to the pro-gun owners to come up with something, and to take the lead on this.
 
Pardus, the right to vote is not good in every state - it requires registration and an increasing amount of paperwork, especially where conservatives back 'voter ID' laws. Further, voting is narrowed by age, felony convictions, and time as voting is done at particular times of the year in controlled circumstances. I always find this argument that the right for every American to own, carry, and employ as many/much weaponry as they desire as the only thing standing between a constitutional paradise and a despotic dictatorship to be hard to fathom. Regardless, the restriction of firearms is indeed different from driving, voting, and marriage - all of those activities do not by their nature provide the means to take life as their primary function (insert marriage jokes here).

That's why I disagreed with the statement.
 
Pardus, the right to vote is not good in every state - it requires registration and an increasing amount of paperwork, especially where conservatives back 'voter ID' laws. Further, voting is narrowed by age, felony convictions, and time as voting is done at particular times of the year in controlled circumstances. I always find this argument that the right for every American to own, carry, and employ as many/much weaponry as they desire as the only thing standing between a constitutional paradise and a despotic dictatorship to be hard to fathom. Regardless, the restriction of firearms is indeed different from driving, voting, and marriage - all of those activities do not by their nature provide the means to take life as their primary function (insert marriage jokes here).

That's why I disagreed with the statement.

I think you meant those activities provide the means to PRESERVE one's right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. ;-)
 
Pardus, the right to vote is not good in every state - it requires registration and an increasing amount of paperwork, especially where conservatives back 'voter ID' laws. Further, voting is narrowed by age, felony convictions, and time as voting is done at particular times of the year in controlled circumstances. I always find this argument that the right for every American to own, carry, and employ as many/much weaponry as they desire as the only thing standing between a constitutional paradise and a despotic dictatorship to be hard to fathom. Regardless, the restriction of firearms is indeed different from driving, voting, and marriage - all of those activities do not by their nature provide the means to take life as their primary function (insert marriage jokes here).

That's why I disagreed with the statement.

Sir, are you familiar with the history of gun registration schemes?
 
Pardus, the right to vote is not good in every state - it requires registration and an increasing amount of paperwork, especially where conservatives back 'voter ID' laws. Further, voting is narrowed by age, felony convictions, and time as voting is done at particular times of the year in controlled circumstances. I always find this argument that the right for every American to own, carry, and employ as many/much weaponry as they desire as the only thing standing between a constitutional paradise and a despotic dictatorship to be hard to fathom. Regardless, the restriction of firearms is indeed different from driving, voting, and marriage - all of those activities do not by their nature provide the means to take life as their primary function (insert marriage jokes here).

That's why I disagreed with the statement.

I don't know what you mean bro, with absentee voting I can vote anywhere for my elections back home. My right to vote isn't taken away from me when I cross state lines like my right to keep and bear arms is. And as far as new registrations go, registering to vote even in a state a bureaucratic as NY takes one form, front and back. And oh yeah, it's completely free.

Compare that to the paperwork and expense of getting a gun permit here. NY only takes NY permits, even though the general requirements are the same as they were in CT (where I also had to get another license, because they don't have reciprocity with any other states) which are the same as the ones in North Carolina.

If the privilege of driving is transferable state to state why isn't my right to keep and bear arms?
 
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My marriage license is good in every state.

Depends on what team you're playing for. If you and Pardus got married in NH and moved to NC... 8-)

Automobiles weren't really a thing back when they were drafting the Constitution... or there'd probably be something in there about them, too. I don't think cars are comparable with other forms of transport (planes, trains, buses, etc), as you're entirely dependent on someone else in the case of the latter.

Nothing in the Constitution about horses or wagons... And nothing in there about TV or the internet; does that mean freedom of the press doesn't apply to any media invented after 1787?

It's a bit like saying the police can protect you with firearms, so you don't need one yourself. It sometimes works (e.g., UK) but it's pretty damn flawed.

This part's a joke right? Your aware that violent crime has gone UP since ya'll banned guns, aren't you?

Basically, forget all the stupid shit that exists today -- try to work towards a brand new, sensible, nationwide system. Gun ownership should remain a right, not a privilege, but all rights come with responsibilities, and no single right has ever been unlimited. So, if just once in your life, you need to show some basic competency with a firearm, to prove that you're not a tard, then IMO, that can only be a benefit to gun owners (provided the system is set up so the government can't abuse it).

Can we apply the same limitations on every other right? Can we make people pass a competency test before they exercise their freedom of religion? And don't tell me it's not the same; religion has killed way more people than any gun I've ever owned. Maybe the government can make sure people NEED their freedom of speech before they're allowed to exercise it.

In practice, many efforts have been really stupid and have just been a guise to restrict ownership rights. But in theory, it makes sense to work towards a better system. Usually, it's anti-gun crowd who work towards such systems and regulations -- hence why they blow. And that's why I think it's down to the pro-gun owners to come up with something, and to take the lead on this.

Dude, that's some progressive sounding words there. How about we enforce EVERY gun law already on the books for ten years, then discuss changes. When Jim Brady died, the news the next day said that the Brady Law kept over (I don't remember but it was in the millions) of people from buying guns. If so, why aren't they all in jail? Because it's against federal law for an unqualified person to even TRY to buy a firearm.
 
I don't know what you mean bro, with absentee voting I can vote anywhere for my elections back home. My right to vote isn't taken away from me when I cross state lines like my right to keep and bear arms is. And as far as new registrations go, registering to vote even in a state a bureaucratic as NY takes one form, front and back. And oh yeah, it's completely free.

Compare that to the paperwork and expense of getting a gun permit here. NY only takes NY permits, even though the general requirements are the same as they were in CT (where I also had to get another license, because they don't have reciprocity with any other states) which are the same as the ones in North Carolina.

If the privilege of driving is transferable state to state why isn't my right to keep and bear arms?

So, you don't have to be registered to vote? You don't lose your right to vote if convicted of a felony? You aren't restricted by age for your vote (18 to vote in the US)? Paperwork and expense equals the right is denied? There are not a number of states who have enacted significant restrictions on voting procedures?
 
I think you meant those activities provide the means to PRESERVE one's right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. ;-)

Nope, did not mean that. Don't believe the historical record reflects guns, as the individual right to carry them, preserved any of those rights - unless Nat Turner's rebellion, the Black Panthers, the Whiskey Rebellion, or white separatists/militias in the US had a different impact than I'm familiar with.
 
You should, before you further weigh yourself down with an ill-founded position.

Your arguments about having to be registered, a specific age, etc to vote versus firearms ownership fall within the realm of flat out derp.

You have to be 18 to purchase a rifle or shotgun
You have to be 21 to purchase a pistol, or ammunition FOR a pistol
You are registered at birth *hi, i'm your friendly social security card*
You are restricted from owning firearms as a felon, just as you are for voting
Your argument about voting times is just flat out inane, considering the purpose of voting is to put someone in charge for a restricted period of time (in sane places, our congress and senate aren't anymore). With that argument you're saying I should be able to go to the range once every 4 years or maybe perhaps 2?

Then you want to throw qualifications into the mix? So I can shoot once every 4 years, but I have to qualify expert in order to be able to keep my license. So you're saying we should adhere to USAF small arms standards.... That's grand. Just lovely.

Guess what, drivers licenses don't require a requalification. They barely do that with PILOTS. You want to restrict a right further than a privilege... pure and simple.

I can get that.

What you're not getting is that the simple fact that the general population of the united states IS armed, prevents significant tyranny from being able to flourish. Those in power seek to restrict that very right in order to increase reliance upon the state... which then with a disarmed population and the sole monopoly upon the capacity for violence, has little to no actual check nor balance against anything they should choose to do or enact. The simple fact that there's a whole shitton of people THAT ARE ARMED ensures that we are still talking and voting like civilized people.

Never mind life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness being ensured by the barrel of a gun.

I'm not a cop, yet both MC and myself have been in positions in the nice part of town in fucking small town America, where the deployment of a firearm ensured that we continued our lives with liberty and pursued happiness another fucking day.

I would love nothing more than for me to be able to snap my fingers and all of a sudden you and EVERYONE on this board who's either LEO or Military, is no longer necessary. Unfortunately, I used my genie's lamp as a spitter and he still has a case of the ass... so we get to deal with reality.

There's a whole lotta nice people out there. There's also a good many dipshits, and there's flat out evil mf'ers as well. I choose to remain prepared and responsible for the safety of my family and myself.... and anyone who chooses to attempt to restrict my rights and abilities to do so can feel free to be the first in line.
 
And with an angry doublepost,
H.R.5344 - To prohibit the purchase, ownership, or possession of enhanced body armor by civilians, with exceptions.

Now our congress wants to not only restrict our ability to defend yourself by stopping a threat that falls into a specific ROE, but also restrict our ability to protect ourselves completely passively.

No surprise it's coming out of california.
 
Ranger Psych, the first part of your argument makes my point. Firearms ownership is subject to restrictions at the state and federal level – just like a number of other rights, including voting, enshrined in the constitution and bill of rights. My points on voting were in response to Marauder06’s assertion his constitutional rights were being violated by being subject to differing and more restrictive gun restrictions between states.

I don’t believe I’ve made any assertions on the utility of specific restrictions on firearms, only that those restrictions are a legitimate purview of the state.

To your second point, that “the simple fact that the general population of the united states IS armed, prevents significant tyranny from being able to flourish” couldn’t be more wrong. I think this is one of the biggest canards rolled out in gun control arguments and it’s just plain false. There is not a country on the planet protected from tyranny by private gun ownership.

States with flourishing democracies, individual rights, and a distinct lack of tyranny with restrictive gun laws: Great Britain, Ireland, Germany, France, Canada, Norway, Sweden, Japan, South Korea, Switzerland – I can keep going down the list of developed countries and get most of them on the list.

States with unrestricted private ownership of weaponry that are failed or failing states: Somalia, Libya, Yemen, Afghanistan, and a few I’m likely forgetting.

The argument for a free society, put forth by John Locke and accepted by the founding fathers (and I will quote an argument put forth by one of grad school professors that might be a quote from another author so heads up, plagiarism follows): “In Locke’s account, we have inalienable rights in a state of nature, but our rights are not secure, because a state of war can break out at any time between any two individuals or groups, in which everything can be taken from us, including our lives. Guns cannot help us in this state — nothing can. We must leave the state of nature to be secure in our rights. Government secures our rights — imperfectly, to be sure. But it establishes a framework of secure rights to be built up and improved on over time.”

If you would like to live in a state of nature, with guns as the guarantor of your individual rights, you have the examples of states where that is the norm above. I will pass on the NRA paradise of Somalia.

When you look at the history of the US or the world you find revolutionary change, checks on power, or the emergence of tyranny was rarely if ever impacted by private gun ownership. Wars required an industrial base, political organization, and the employment of forces – minutemen did not win the American Revolution, the Continental Army (with French support) did. Similarly great social or governmental change is primarily driven through institutions, speech, and political pressure. The civil rights movement in America was primarily advanced through non-violent protests, political pressure, and judicial action. The privately armed militias (Black Panthers, etc.) were spectacularly unsuccessful and in fact provoked huge backlashes from the state.

Look, guns are awesome. I enjoy owning them and shooting them. I have no idea what gun regulations make sense and which don’t. When evaluating them I try to utilize some minimally scientific assessment of their proposed and actual effect. However, making the argument that society will inevitably fall to ‘tyranny’ without unlimited private gun ownership is a ridiculous argument that makes me deeply distrustful of the logic and honesty of those who push it.
 
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Yet, in the flourishing democracies with individual rights and a supposed lack of tyranny..... the disarmed citizenry and even law enforcement is stuck in the role of a literal sheep.

Confined without tools (note restrictions on simple pocketknives we use on a daily basis here, vs England as a prime example) unable to defend themselves, and with largely fangless law enforcement should a wolf arrive and behead one of their soldiers.... I would pity the population should a mumbai style event occur there. Never mind that they're likely to be charged themselves should they present any resistance to anyone who impresses force upon them in their own defense! Truly Free!

If you think Somalia is a NRA paradise, you should think again. While as a failed nation its laws go unenforced, it actually has firearms law that is on par with England's restrictions. Effectively all weapons in that nation are by law(while due to a defunct goverment, not effectively) national property.

Pointing to densely packed, socialistic in government, nations with land areas that are on par with maybe 2 US States and saying "it works there" is wearing rose colored glasses and ignoring all the social and economic differences between the countries. It's not powerpoint, you can't just copy-paste from something else and expect it to be remotely valid in execution.

Government does not secure our rights. Government gives us a path of recourse should our rights be infringed.

Government does not prevent:

  • my shit being stolen
  • being unlawfully detained by law enforcement
  • being kidnapped
  • being raped
  • being assaulted
  • my window having a brick through it
  • etc etc etc
It only provides us with the letter of law that which will punitively punish those who committed the acts, and a civil court course of action for theoretical monetary reimbursement from the transgressing party to the aggrieved party.

Government, and their proxy Law enforcement, is REACTIVE. Period. How many murders does LE investigate? Know why they're investigating it? Because they don't know all the facts because THEY WERE NOT THERE.

You can see this fact specifically by researching the number of conspiracy charges placed against people/groups versus actual law violations. It's a feather versus a freight train.

The laws that are on the books now, as it sits, would work just fricking FINE if they were actually prosecuted. It's a crime to ATTEMPT to purchase a weapon when you are restricted from doing so, yet the ATF doesn't prosecute damn near any at all... and under the direction of our lovely government you seem to hold so high upon the pedestal, allows illicit guns to be purchased and moved beyond our borders and outside of their ability to track or control them so that our own law enforcement agents can be killed by them.

Yet there's a 6+ month backlog for people who have to pay an additional tax, submit a full set of fingerprints and photos, get signed off by local law enforcement that they are a normal sane person, and undergo a federal background check as well.... in order to buy a hearing protection device to mount on their firearms that also would end up reducing the annoyance to people who live nearby to firearms ranges (who usually move there AFTER the range has been well established for decades, and then start bitching about it)

Another argument brought up in this thread: Trying to say that a firearms sales establishment should do some sort of qualification with the weapon and person prior to sale or as condition of sale, is like saying that a dealership should do drivers ed. It's an inane argument. The shop that I worked at (albeit for an extremely short time due to issues with the management) did give a quick class of instruction encompassing the 4 rules of firearm safety, and basic operation of the system.

You want to decrease the amount of firearms accidents? Put it back in school. Don't make a modern TOOL such a mystical item that people inherently do stupid and unsafe things with them. That would severely reduce the amount of firearms accidents that occur, especially involving children. Even something as simple as the NRA Eddie Eagle "Don't touch, tell an adult" basic mantra is better firearms education than being totally naive. Some schools still do drivers ed, some unserviceable and filled bore/chamber M1903's from the CMP given to every school for training would literally cost shipping price from CMP to the schools, and be zero hazard to anyone in the class unlike when the DEA goes to do a show and tell.

Then, on top of that, bring school rifle teams BACK. You pointed at Switzerland as an example of what's right.... guess what they do. They have national holidays for marksmanship competitions. The rifle teams don't have to be mandatory, but it's a highly skill based task that we should hold in high regard rather than shun.

I mean, fuck, my daughter's FOUR and already knows not to touch the firearms. She helps sort the shotshells and magazines when we're doing monthly maintenance, though.. while supervised. I grew up with the entire family's rack of rifles in MY BEDROOM. I could clean/handle them any time I pleased, provided I asked one of my parents beforehand. I've never had a negligent discharge with ANY weapon system I have owned or been issued.

In short:

Enforce the current legislation that is already there
Educate the population as to operation of the tools, and legalities therein. We're teaching them about how to avoid things that can kill them or fuck them up for life (Sex education, drivers education) so why the fuck aren't we teaching them THERE about something that's just as common?

oh, that's right, it's an evil black rifle that only the government and military should have. But you can have a prius to drive through a peloton.
 
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