Voter ID Law Opposed... Why Again?

[JBS]

North Carolina has passed a law that requires voters to do the same thing when they vote that they have to do when buying a Bud Light: Show their ID.

Yet somehow people (including the NAACP) have a problem with this. So here' s a serious question. Why would any proud citizen of any Democratically run nation seriously oppose this law? Real question. What is the legit argument saying that people should vote without an I.D.? The only answer I've found after talking with an activist perhaps 6 months ago was not a real answer, but rather a reframing of the question. She said, "the real issue is why do Republicans want to make a law when there is no evidence of fraud?" I would say that didn't answer the question, and she'd reply, robotically, "you didn't answer MY question". I didn't continue on with it. Just left bewildered.

The article says it will discourage people from voting, including minorities and the elderly. Why would a law requiring ID discourage the minority groups and the elderly? Minorities use alcohol at the same or possibly greater rate than whites, which requires identification to do usually, and the elderly by God you can't even get them off the fucking roads, which mean they have drivers' licenses. So who are all these people with no ID's?

North Carolina Gov. Pat McCrory on Monday signed into law changes in how residents can vote that includes requiring them to show a photo ID at polling stations, a move that triggered threats of legal action from the NAACP and other groups.

The American Civil Liberties Union joined two other groups in announcing that they were filing suit against key parts of the package. This came hours after McCrory said in a statement that he had signed the measure, without a ceremony.

“Common practices like boarding an airplane and purchasing Sudafed require photo ID, and we should expect nothing less for the protection of our right to vote,” the Republican governor said in a statement.

McCrory, a Republican, also said residents “overwhelmingly” support the “common sense” law and that North Carolina is following 34 other states in requiring some form of vote ID.

"While some will try to make this seem to be controversial, the simple reality is that requiring voters to provide a photo ID when they vote is a common sense idea,” McCrory also said. “This new law brings our state in line with a healthy majority of other states throughout the country.”


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...r-id-law-faces-legal-challenge/#ixzz2bqkgC874

 

[TLDR20]

Laws like these keep the less well off and minorities from voting. Or at least that is what those opposing this day. I agree with you @JBS. Why they can't show an ID is absurd to me.

 

[TLDR20]

The other parts of the bill that I have problems with include limiting early voting, closing many on campus polls and other measures that will help keep NC a "red" state. While good politics I don't think those initiatives are best for the state.

 

[Ranger Psych]

Personally I think that there's absolutely no need for "early" voting. Can't make it on poll day? There's this thing called absentee ballots you can do. I'm about as broke as they come and I've got....4? forms of photo identification that is governmentally issued? VA id, DOD id, DMV id, Borough responder ID... and that's just off the top of my head.

Takes a fake or real ID to go get fucked up, but you can get the country fucked up without one... lol

 

[DA SWO]

The other parts of the bill that I have problems with include limiting early voting, closing many on campus polls and other measures that will help keep NC a "red" state. While good politics I don't think those initiatives are best for the state.

Early voting has become a fraud mechanism. I was a proponent of EV, but now think it needs to be scaled back to limit fraud. The only people who don't have ID's are those who don't want the cops to know who they are, and they generally don't vote.

 

[TLDR20]

Personally I think that there's absolutely no need for "early" voting. Can't make it on poll day? There's this thing called absentee ballots you can do. I'm about as broke as they come and I've got....4? forms of photo identification that is governmentally issued? VA id, DOD id, DMV id, Borough responder ID... and that's just off the top of my head.

Takes a fake or real ID to go get fucked up, but you can get the country fucked up without one... lol

Absolutely no need?

I think it is imperative that the most people possible vote. That is the truest way for people to express themselves politically, which I believe is an important thing to do as Americans. I think early voting is a great way to get more people to vote. I did it this past election in fact.

 

[Ranger Psych]

It's redundant and requires dedication of polling places and people that otherwise could be doing something else.

Everyone in this nation who can, can vote, and if you can't make time in your evening to fill out and toss an absentee ballot in an envelope and drop it off on your way to work or in your mailbox (since they do still pick up mail from mailboxes most places)....

 

[TLDR20]

It's redundant and requires dedication of polling places and people that otherwise could be doing something else.

Everyone in this nation who can, can vote, and if you can't make time in your evening to fill out and toss an absentee ballot in an envelope and drop it off on your way to work or in your mailbox (since they do still pick up mail from mailboxes most places)....

So because you don't like it, no one should get it?


As to the voter fraud, how widespread is it? Are there that many people ghost voting?

Nevermind link...http://www.truethevote.org/news/how-widespread-is-voter-fraud-2012-facts-figures

I see problems with our system but closing polls on college campuses and early voting are not the solutions. Having an ID at my early vote would be fine with me.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

I would really like to see a secure online/phone/text voting system. In todays age, having to go somewhere special or mail in your vote seems stupid to me. I understand the fraud and security concerns regarding "online voting" but I think its a shame in todays tech-age with super smart everything, we can't figure out away to blend the modern tech to the voting.

I mean shit, part of your phone contract can be a "voting agreement" requiring the ID/register of the voter. Then a special pass to submit your vote, make your vote and done. Too easy IMHO.

 

[LimaOscarSierraTango]

There is no way to secure a voting system like that. It is too easy to spoof information. None of the nodes will be 100% secure. It's a bad idea all around, IMO. They can't even secure electronic voting machines. You can not have bug/exploit free code. People are just too lazy to to run checks on everything, and exploiters/bug hunters/etc. are just too fucking smart.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

There is no way to secure a voting system like that. It is too easy to spoof information. None of the nodes will be 100% secure. It's a bad idea all around, IMO. They can't even secure electronic voting machines. You can not have bug/exploit free code. People are just too lazy to to run checks on everything, and exploiters/bug hunters/etc. are just too fucking smart.

I would be willing to be it will happen within the next 10 years. But agree it's not possible now, but disagree that its is impossible all together.

 

[Scotth]

Two times in my life I would have lost the right to vote if laws like in NC were in placed were I live. The first time was when I was like 20. I lost my wallet with my drivers license, military ID etc. All I had was a paper license application. My room mate was able to vouch for me to vote. The second time was in my thirties. Bought a house and changed my address for my license. During that application process they clipped my drivers license. I took that clipped license plus my paper license to the polls and they said because the license was clipped it was no longer a valid form of idea and I couldn't vote. Had to get another person to come vouch for me so I could vote.

Those are real examples. From a larger perspective there isn't a single case of statically significant voter fraud anywhere. After 2012 the Republican SoS for Ohio did a state wide investigation for voter fraud and came up with 135 cases out of over 5.3 million votes cast. That a fraud rate of .000025%.
http://www.sos.state.oh.us/SOS/mediaCenter/2013/2013-05-23.aspx

If there is ever fraud that will take place it will be fraud at the voting device. That is the only way to significantly impact a race. People running around voting 2, 3 or even 10 times isn't going to impact the election. The voter ids laws is not just about the id either. They are also limiting early voting time and purging voter registrations and other things to take away accessibility to voting. My Mom likes to vote by absentee so she can go home and Google all the people on the ballot. She has the chance to look up the judges and county officials she has never heard about so she can be better informed in her vote.

There have also been other ways that states are trying to control the vote. In Ohio there was different early voting times were Republican districts stayed open until 7pm and Democratic districts were shutdown at 5pm.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/15/opinion/overt-discrimination-in-ohio.html?_r=0

Texas, after the recent SCOTUS ruling on the Voting Rights Act, just re-installed their redistricting plan from 2011 that was ruled discriminatory from the federal court back when it was first proposed. This is why the DoJ is going to Federal Court to try an get Texas back on pre-clearance under a different section of the Voting Rights Act.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...-need-to-know/2011/12/13/gIQAdowHsO_blog.html

Back to the voter ID requirements. The problem with Voter ID laws is it will disenfranchise more Americans then it will prevent from fraudulently voting by very very large margins. Why would we want a "solution" that was worse then the problem?

We should, as a nation, be looking for solutions that make it easier for people to vote. Why we have 1 day voting is staggering to me. I think my Mom is ahead of the curve in her idea to take her ballot home and spend the time on the internet to become better informed on the people especially the candidates down on the ballot.

Republican's have admitted that Voter Id helped lowered the turnout. It came up in the Texas redistricting case in email discovery and in Pennsylvania the GOP Chairman Rob Gleason

Said Gleason: "Yeah, I think a little bit. We probably had a better election. Think about this, we cut Obama by five percent, which was big. A lot of people lost sight of that. He won, he beat McCain by 10 percent, he only beat Romney by five percent. I think that probably voter ID helped a bit in that."

http://politicalwire.com/archives/2013/07/19/gop_official_admits_voter_id_law_hurt_obama.html

That is the real intent of voter ID and other rules like purging voter registration database etc.

 

[Mac_NZ]

It might interest some of you but here you have to legally register to vote, you don't have to vote if you don't want to but you must enrol.

Introduction

The right to vote is an inherent right of New Zealanders. The law establishing this right and stating the eligibility requirements for voting are contained in the ELECTORAL ACT 1993.

Who is eligible to vote?
To be able to vote in a general election in New Zealand you must satisfy all of the following conditions:

• You must be a citizen of New Zealand or a permanent resident.
• You must be 18 years of age or older.
• You must at some time have lived continuously in New Zealand for at least one year.
• You must be registered as a voter on the electoral roll for your electorate.

To be qualified to enrol in an electorate, the electorate must be the last in which you have lived continuously for at least a month.

Am I required to enrol if I'm eligible to vote?
Yes, New Zealanders have a legal obligation to enrol to vote, and may be fined if they do not enrol.

What if I'm travelling when an election is held?
You retain the right to vote if you are travelling at the time of the election. If you know that you are going to be away, you may be able to cast your vote early; you can find out if this is possible by contacting the Returning Officer for your electorate once the time for nominations has closed. If you have not been able to cast an early vote and you are out of your electorate on election day, you can cast a special vote at any polling booth.

You can even cast a vote if you are overseas. You should contact the nearest New Zealand diplomatic representative (such as a NZ Embassy or High Commission) and they will help you arrange to vote.

What if I'm in prison when the election is held?
If you are awaiting trial in prison, you can vote. But if you're serving a prison term after having been convicted you do not have the right to vote.

Once you have been released from prison, your right to vote will be restored.

Cautionary notes

• If you change your address you will need to notify the Registrar of Electors, otherwise this may disqualify you from voting in your new electorate.

I don't have a problem with registering to vote. I know the government already knows where I live from my taxes etc and I'm not trying to stay off the grid.

I think it is however, pretty weird that the people who have no problem showing their US Passport when they return from abroad to their communist pleasure land have such a drama about having to show ID to vote to prove they have the right.

Edit:

Not referring to you Scotth, you demonstrated valid reasons but in regards to the voter fraud investigation was it just to check people making 2-3 votes or to check for non eligible voters?

 

[Scotth]

I think it is however, pretty weird that the people who have no problem showing their US Passport when they return from abroad to their communist pleasure land have such a drama about having to show ID to vote to prove they have the right.

Edit:

Not referring to you Scotth, you demonstrated valid reasons but in regards to the voter fraud investigation was it just to check people making 2-3 votes or to check for non eligible voters?

I didn't have a passport until I was nearly 40 and that was only because after 9/11 a passport was required to travel to Canada. Some people have proposed as part of there voter id laws that the state must provide free forms of government issued id's which is a positive step but doesn't solve all the problems for the elderly, poor and handicapped. Additionally if you don't provide the alternate methods, especially when you have a 1 day voting window, that is where the problems comes if you don't allow things like provisional balloting or in my case another resident who swear out an oath to allow the person to vote etc.

In the US the voting records are data-based to such a level the NSA could learn a thing or two.:-/

They have historical voting records and polling data down the the precinct level (the lowest voting level) up to the state as a whole. When you combine the data-based voting records combine with registration record and every other status the government tracks like immigration, legal, death certificates etc etc. It's not hard to track who voted legally or not. The political parties, the press and even campaigns have access to all that data and it is the reason why they can call a state wide election minutes after the polls close by looking at just a small sample of turnout in select locations. If their was unexpected results it would raise alarms.

We had three election cycles in Minnesota from 2006-2010 that had recounts in state wide office holder elections. One Governor race and two Senate races and all ended up in recounts. The biggest case of fraud is they found 77 felons who had voted before they had completely finished their sentence.

The data is available and easily searched to determine if their is voter fraud. Remember also that the ID is just a small part of the equation of what is going on. It is an easily sold idea but at the end of the day the ID issue is a fix for a problem that doesn't exist and will end up doing more damage then it fixes. You don't see the people advocating Voter ID talking about removing voting from college campus or restricting early voting because then the people stop favoring the bill.

 

[TLDR20]

You don't see the people advocating Voter ID talking about removing voting from college campus or restricting early voting because then the people stop favoring the bill.

Except in NC.

 

[Marauder06]

... From a larger perspective there isn't a single case of statically significant voter fraud anywhere. After 2012 the Republican SoS for Ohio did a state wide investigation for voter fraud and came up with 135 cases out of over 5.3 million votes cast. That a fraud rate of .000025%.
http://www.sos.state.oh.us/SOS/mediaCenter/2013/2013-05-23.aspx

I think all that link you posted shows is that Ohio caught the dumbest of the dumb; for example people who registered in Ohio and another state but voted in both. How thorough was the investigation? What about people who registered fraudulently, but were smart enough to only vote once? And who on this site buys that in a bureaucracy that involved 5.3 MILLION people that there were only 135 voting discrepancies? This IS government we're talking about, right? I've got to imagine that they make more mistakes than that on a daily basis.

As far as the myth that voter fraud doesn't exist: (numerous sources, but here's one from the Heritage Foundation)
(Supreme Court Justice) Stevens wrote in a 6-3 majority opinion upholding an Indiana voter ID law: “That flagrant examples of [voter] fraud…have been documented throughout this Nation’s history by respected historians and journalists…demonstrate that not only is the risk of voter fraud real but that it could affect the outcome of a close election.”

If there is ever fraud that will take place it will be fraud at the voting device. That is the only way to significantly impact a race. People running around voting 2, 3 or even 10 times isn't going to impact the election.

Did that really come out the way you meant it to? That multiple people voting fraudulently numerous times won't impact an election? That doesn't seem to pass the common sense test. Can you explain that logic to me?

...Back to the voter ID requirements. The problem with Voter ID laws is it will disenfranchise more Americans then it will prevent from fraudulently voting by very very large margins. Why would we want a "solution" that was worse then the problem?

Same source as above: [T]he number of people who don’t already have a photo ID is incredibly small. An American University survey in Maryland, Indiana, and Mississippi found that less than one-half of 1 percent of registered voters lacked a government-issued ID, and a 2006 survey of more than 36,000 voters found that only “23 people in the entire sample–less than one-tenth of one percent of reported voters” were unable to vote because of an ID requirement. What about those who don’t have photo IDs? Von Spakovsky notes that “every state that has passed a voter ID law has also ensured that the very small percentage of individuals who do not have a photo ID can easily obtain one for free if they cannot afford one.”

We should, as a nation, be looking for solutions that make it easier for people to vote.

We, as a nation, should be looking for ways of ensuring that only qualified citizens vote, and they only vote once each, in elections that they are supposed to be voting in.

Republican's have admitted that Voter Id helped lowered the turnout. It came up in the Texas redistricting case in email discovery and in Pennsylvania the GOP Chairman Rob Gleason
http://politicalwire.com/archives/2013/07/19/gop_official_admits_voter_id_law_hurt_obama.html
That is the real intent of voter ID and other rules like purging voter registration database etc.

I watched the video and I have a different take. The person talking in the video said only that they lowered then-candidate Obama's margin of victory by five percent. Another way of interpreting what he meant was that Voter ID kept 5% (of whatever number) from voting fraudulently for now-President Obama, it didn't seem to me like he was celebrating keeping people from lawful voting. Is there more context to the story that is not included in the very brief clip you posted?

 

[DA SWO]

Texas, after the recent SCOTUS ruling on the Voting Rights Act, just re-installed their redistricting plan from 2011 that was ruled discriminatory from the federal court back when it was first proposed. This is why the DoJ is going to Federal Court to try an get Texas back on pre-clearance under a different section of the Voting Rights Act.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...-need-to-know/2011/12/13/gIQAdowHsO_blog.html

Partially correct, they installed the boundaries created by a Federal Judge that basically affirmed the handshake deal between Republican and Democrat Pols in DC.

DoJ is run by a racist, and that's why they are trying to screw with TX.

 

[Totentanz]

There is no way to secure a voting system like that. It is too easy to spoof information. None of the nodes will be 100% secure. It's a bad idea all around, IMO. They can't even secure electronic voting machines. You can not have bug/exploit free code. People are just too lazy to to run checks on everything, and exploiters/bug hunters/etc. are just too fucking smart.

What was the logic behind the massive push to electronic machines anyway? I never did see an answer to why the lever-based machines were substandard, and have viewed the electronic push as a solution searching for a problem...

 

[LimaOscarSierraTango]

What was the logic behind the massive push to electronic machines anyway? I never did see an answer to why the lever-based machines were substandard, and have viewed the electronic push as a solution searching for a problem...

I think the biggest issues is that technology companies are out to make money. So they convince non-technological people that technology will solve all of their problems. Advances in technology are advances in the human race. I am pretty sure I just reiterated what you stated, Sir... My bad. Maybe I can sound as smart as you? Maybe not...

Really people, it's ok to have some analog technology in a digital world (that was for you Mara :troll:).

 

[JBS]

Two times in my life I would have lost the right to vote if laws like in NC were in placed were I live. The first time was when I was like 20. I lost my wallet with my drivers license, military ID etc. All I had was a paper license application. My room mate was able to vouch for me to vote. The second time was in my thirties. Bought a house and changed my address for my license. During that application process they clipped my drivers license. I took that clipped license plus my paper license to the polls and they said because the license was clipped it was no longer a valid form of idea and I couldn't vote. Had to get another person to come vouch for me so I could vote.

Those are real examples. From a larger perspective there isn't a single case of statically significant voter fraud anywhere. After 2012 the Republican SoS for Ohio did a state wide investigation for voter fraud and came up with 135 cases out of over 5.3 million votes cast. That a fraud rate of .000025%.
http://www.sos.state.oh.us/SOS/mediaCenter/2013/2013-05-23.aspx

If there is ever fraud that will take place it will be fraud at the voting device. That is the only way to significantly impact a race. People running around voting 2, 3 or even 10 times isn't going to impact the election. The voter ids laws is not just about the id either. They are also limiting early voting time and purging voter registrations and other things to take away accessibility to voting. My Mom likes to vote by absentee so she can go home and Google all the people on the ballot. She has the chance to look up the judges and county officials she has never heard about so she can be better informed in her vote.

There have also been other ways that states are trying to control the vote. In Ohio there was different early voting times were Republican districts stayed open until 7pm and Democratic districts were shutdown at 5pm.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/15/opinion/overt-discrimination-in-ohio.html?_r=0

Texas, after the recent SCOTUS ruling on the Voting Rights Act, just re-installed their redistricting plan from 2011 that was ruled discriminatory from the federal court back when it was first proposed. This is why the DoJ is going to Federal Court to try an get Texas back on pre-clearance under a different section of the Voting Rights Act.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...-need-to-know/2011/12/13/gIQAdowHsO_blog.html

Back to the voter ID requirements. The problem with Voter ID laws is it will disenfranchise more Americans then it will prevent from fraudulently voting by very very large margins. Why would we want a "solution" that was worse then the problem?

We should, as a nation, be looking for solutions that make it easier for people to vote. Why we have 1 day voting is staggering to me. I think my Mom is ahead of the curve in her idea to take her ballot home and spend the time on the internet to become better informed on the people especially the candidates down on the ballot.

Republican's have admitted that Voter Id helped lowered the turnout. It came up in the Texas redistricting case in email discovery and in Pennsylvania the GOP Chairman Rob Gleason

http://politicalwire.com/archives/2013/07/19/gop_official_admits_voter_id_law_hurt_obama.html

That is the real intent of voter ID and other rules like purging voter registration database etc.

For one thing, @Scotth, you are more of a man than me if when you lose your wallet the only thign you have to worry about is "Oh shit I can't vote". I'm too busy adding up how many hours I'm going to spend on the phone with India and the Philippines trying to get all my bank & credit cards cancelled. And then I'm going to start scheduling an appointment 10 days later with the NC DMV to get a replacement license because, you know, it takes 2 people 8 hours to print 100 laminated cards per day and hand out place-holder numbers, and that requires weeks prior appointments. GO BIG GOVERNMENT.

But seriously what do you do if you get to the plane with no license? You miss the plane, right? Do you write to your Congressmen and have them campaign to allow every Yahoo on a plane with no I.D.? I doubt it! And which is worse? Fifty Yahoos getting on a plane who don't belong there, or A single YAHOO getting into the White House who doesn't belong there?