Your Experiences With "Toxic Leaders"

[pardus]

OK, brand new E2-E3 walks into his first unit and starts talking to his squad, platoon, company and finds the majority have a bad attitude because they are "sick of getting fucked around".

Can't get schools because the NCOs take them or won't allow his name to go forward, PT scores aren't put in because NCOs can't be bothered and he doesn't get promoted.
Pay doesn't go in because "something was messed up, but don't worry, we're on it.
Is forced to pay for his own travel because he couldn't register with DTS due to an NCOs lack of knowledge and was told "don't worry, we're on it".

Listening to NCOs talking with pride about how they beat up junior ranks and also threatening other junior ranks.

NCOs talking in front of junior ranks about how other NCOs/Officers are "assholes" etc... and how they want to beat them up/ruin their career etc...

That is stuff off the top of my head ive seen personally.

Now there are layers above that for sure, ive also witnessed Officers displaying despicable behavior that has even greater effect but I'm responding directly to JABs post.

 

[TLDR20]

OK, brand new E2-E3 walks into his first unit and starts talking to his squad, platoon, company and finds the majority have a bad attitude because they are "sick of getting fucked around".

Can't get schools because the NCOs take them or won't allow his name to go forward, PT scores aren't put in because NCOs can't be bothered and he doesn't get promoted.
Pay doesn't go in because "something was messed up, but don't worry, we're on it.
Is forced to pay for his own travel because he couldn't register with DTS due to an NCOs lack of knowledge and was told "don't worry, we're on it".

Listening to NCOs talking with pride about how they beat up junior ranks and also threatening other junior ranks.

NCOs talking in front of junior ranks about how other NCOs/Officers are "assholes" etc... and how they want to beat them up/ruin their career etc...

That is stuff off the top of my head ive seen personally.

Now there are layers above that for sure, ive also witnessed Officers displaying despicable behavior that has even greater effect but I'm responding directly to JABs post.

This is the first I have heard of things like this. You might just be in a horrible unit. I would be sick of getting fucked around too. These are issues that should be brought up through the CoC, if that doesn't yield results, I would go to IG.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

I have seen some of those things T, although I agree with Cback that it needs to go up the CoC it will go one of two ways for you; 1) the CoC will cover it up and look to fuck you some how, or 2) they will do something abou it. When dealing with the NG, I feel a detailed letter to congress is the best way to go. There is no way that CoC is not aware of that shit going on, and if they are already allowing it to happen then you kind of know where you will stand if you push it up.

Personally I would run like hell from a unit like that, sometimes you have to take your own sanity into account...

 

[TLDR20]

A threat of a letter to a congressman is normally enough to get whatever you need done, done. However it is like calling a tactical nuclear weapon as danger close on your position. If it happens, you had better make sure your shit is wired TIGHT. And you have proof of any allegations made. Why not just interstate/unit transfer?

 

[pardus]

Yeah, I'm now on a temporary posting to another unit and I'm seeing amazing things like, NCOs looking after us and we actually get a meal when we are meant to get one. (seriously, I've gone more than 24hrs without a govt supplied meal while on base almost every time we train (we are are allowed to take MREs if we can find them))
I'm far to wise to know that making a complaint will do nothing except make this my first and last enlistment and the remainder will be miserable.
I do what I can to help the guys out, I have some sway that extends a little above my station. My new unit has given me great responsibility that allows me to ensure I will have a big say in what happens in a line company from now on.

I like to bitch on the surface but I also work on things quietly and stealthily from the soft underbelly ;)

The return to my parent unit, yes I'm dreading it, but I'm hoping the CoC has changed by then and things will be better.
We'll see... :-|

 

[pardus]

Why not just interstate/unit transfer?

I'm due to deploy soon(ish), once that's over, i'm looking for a job away from my present AO.
When/wherever I land that job is the place I'll be transferring to.

If you have any leads let me know! lol

 

[TLDR20]

Are you a citizen? If so why not go to group?

 

[pardus]

Are you a citizen? If so why not go to group?

Yep.
Not in shape to go the tabbed route at the moment.
Attached, well I though that would be a cool way to go but it was explained to me that I probably wouldn't do anything of significance. Not too many non tabbed guys on patrol right?

 

[RetPara]

OK, brand new E2-E3 walks into his first unit and starts talking to his squad, platoon, company and finds the majority have a bad attitude because they are "sick of getting fucked around".

Can't get schools because the NCOs take them or won't allow his name to go forward, PT scores aren't put in because NCOs can't be bothered and he doesn't get promoted.
Pay doesn't go in because "something was messed up, but don't worry, we're on it.
Is forced to pay for his own travel because he couldn't register with DTS due to an NCOs lack of knowledge and was told "don't worry, we're on it".

Listening to NCOs talking with pride about how they beat up junior ranks and also threatening other junior ranks.

NCOs talking in front of junior ranks about how other NCOs/Officers are "assholes" etc... and how they want to beat them up/ruin their career etc...

That is stuff off the top of my head ive seen personally.

Now there are layers above that for sure, ive also witnessed Officers displaying despicable behavior that has even greater effect but I'm responding directly to JABs post.

I've seen platoon and company level NCO's and officers relieved for less than that.

 

[surgicalcric]

Yep.
Not in shape to go the tabbed route at the moment.
Attached, well I though that would be a cool way to go but it was explained to me that I probably wouldn't do anything of significance. Not too many non tabbed guys on patrol right?

We had 5 non-tabbed guys out with us last night...

We have two CRD guys and a 25B attached to our ODA and an armorer who lives on our fire base and the 4 of them have seen more action in this country than some of the team guys from sister ODAs. ;)

Pardus, it all depends on who you are, how well you know your job and your place in the hierarchy, and what the ODA needs.

I know plenty of support guys who find their way to an ODA by doing a great job in the rear... I know plenty of guys who are shitbags, think because they are in an SF Group they are SF guys and end up watching the team leave the wire nightly too... Depends on a lot of variables and timing...

All that said, support guys are just that, support. Them going out on patrols are more of an attaboy than anything else, aside from the SOT-As...

 

[RetPara]

All that said, support guys are just that, support. Them going out on patrols are more of an attaboy than anything else, aside from the SOT-As...

This is a really amusing comment when you sit and think about it for a moment. For most of us here the comment makes a lot of sense. The British Army had a punishment for soldiers by "Removing Them From The Roster Of Battle" and leaving them behind. So our more's and values are so skewed that punishment is viewed as not being allowed to hang our ass out possibly get killed. No wonder some people - even friends and family never seem to "get it".

I could imagine going to some folks that are "support" types here and sincerely saying "Since your doing such a great job you get to work all night, go out with a patrol and get shot at!!!!" If THAT didn't get me a vacation on the inpatient mental health ward... I don't know what would...

 

[pardus]

We had 5 non-tabbed guys out with us last night...

We have two CRD guys and a 25B attached to our ODA and an armorer who lives on our fire base and the 4 of them have seen more action in this country than some of the team guys from sister ODAs. ;)

Pardus, it all depends on who you are, how well you know your job and your place in the hierarchy, and what the ODA needs.

I know plenty of support guys who find their way to an ODA by doing a great job in the rear... I know plenty of guys who are shitbags, think because they are in an SF Group they are SF guys and end up watching the team leave the wire nightly too... Depends on a lot of variables and timing...

All that said, support guys are just that, support. Them going out on patrols are more of an attaboy than anything else, aside from the SOT-As...

Things that make you go Hmmm....

Thank you for that.

 

[moobob]

Toxic leadership... It effects the integrity of the NCO/Officer evaluation system.

Incompetent leaders sometimes don't like having competent subordinates. Doesn't make much sense when you think of it, because the competent subordinates make them look good when they might actually be doing a shit job.

i.e. "I don't want to give you a 1/1 NCOER because it is your first one, so you can show improve on the next one." That doesn't make sense.
-
I have this friend (who is actually me) that has been given subpar ratings, twice, by incompetent supervisors with no justification. The first time, my NCOER was held until my PCS day. The other time, the supervisor in question went to a school together after the rating was given, and the supervisor quit the school, and went to another unit. I can't really appeal the ratings, because they were 2/2, which isn't "bad" (but really is). I guess I am just a smartass and find ways to subtly let them know they suck ass. That same guy, I almost guarantee will get promoted to higher levels where he can screw over more people.

Something I wonder about is how a centralized board looks at ratings like that when they are surrounded by nothing but 1/1.

--
I guess the big issue I see with our current leadership is careerism, instead of being willing to fall on your sword for your men, with risk aversion being connected to that.

It sometimes seems that actually accomplishing something militarily seems like it takes second place to "Did not have any alcohol related incidents while in command".

 

[Teufel]

OK, brand new E2-E3 walks into his first unit and starts talking to his squad, platoon, company and finds the majority have a bad attitude because they are "sick of getting fucked around".

Can't get schools because the NCOs take them or won't allow his name to go forward, PT scores aren't put in because NCOs can't be bothered and he doesn't get promoted.
Pay doesn't go in because "something was messed up, but don't worry, we're on it.
Is forced to pay for his own travel because he couldn't register with DTS due to an NCOs lack of knowledge and was told "don't worry, we're on it".

Listening to NCOs talking with pride about how they beat up junior ranks and also threatening other junior ranks.

NCOs talking in front of junior ranks about how other NCOs/Officers are "assholes" etc... and how they want to beat them up/ruin their career etc...

That is stuff off the top of my head ive seen personally.

Now there are layers above that for sure, ive also witnessed Officers displaying despicable behavior that has even greater effect but I'm responding directly to JABs post.

Sounds like you should have joined the Marines!

 

[pardus]

Sounds like you should have joined the Marines!

You fuckers said I was too old! lol

 

[Teufel]

You fuckers said I was too old! lol

Maybe you should have enlisted at the Marine Corps museum.

 

[pardus]

Fucker!

 

[Ranger Psych]

I almost swallowed my dip. :)

 

[goon175]

I think one of the major problems with the good/great junior leaders not getting to levels where they can get rid of some/all of this toxicity is the fact that they are THAT GOOD and thus don't want to stick around long enough to deal with it. They do there time (6-10 years), guys under them will admire them and hope that they will have that guy as a 1sg or csm some day, but instead they get out and go contract, get work for an alphabet agency, or continue there education. Or they stay in and go to an SMU where they really aren't going to have a huge impact on the problems we are talking about here. Who is left alot of times? The guys that continue this ruthless cycle of toxicity. Now I am not trying to say that we don't have some great 1sg's, csm's, etc. out there, I just think they are spread too thin in the army to change this problem effectively. And you find a large proportion of the good/great leaders in the SOF community, thus leaving a lot of units on the conventional side "high and dry".

 

[Viper1]

There is an article in the most recent Army Times about a LTC getting romantically involved with a Sergeant's wife. A Sergeant who the LTC was chaptering out of the Army because of PTSD and DUI issues. Doesn't get more toxic than that in my opinion. It's only in paper version but the online article should be up soon.